THINKWELL

AGEWELL

The Soul of Herbal Medicine: Regeneration, Purpose, and Aging Well

00;00;00;00 – 00;00;23;11
Unknown
And this was when I was a student. My mom had, amyloid disease, and so it was terminal. My family wouldn’t let me give her herbs until the very 11th hour. And I brought her herbs, and she took up. She took that bottle, Heather. And she held it up with two hands and looked up and she said, Please, God.

00;00;23;13 – 00;00;36;03
Unknown
And I hope I’m not getting emotional. But she said, Please God, let these work. And it was right there I realized that. Did I do it right?

00;00;36;06 – 00;00;45;09
Unknown
It all came back to me. I questioned myself, did I do it with the very best integrity that I could do it with?

00;00;45;12 – 00;00;56;12
Unknown
And I think that’s that’s what we all should be, you know, bringing into making herbal medicine.

00;00;56;15 – 00;01;24;22
Unknown
Some days just don’t feel like work and today is one of them. I have the distinct privilege of welcoming you back to the Think Well Agewell podcast, but also to introduce you to Rick Scavo. Today he is joining us, and I am just so excited to dive into his career, his journey with you. He’s really shaped the herbal medicine landscape and way more than I realized before I was doing some research to prepare for this.

00;01;24;24 – 00;01;47;18
Unknown
Rick began studying herbal and natural traditions back in the 80s, immersing himself in everything from eclectic herbal medicine to are you Veda to traditional Chinese medicine. And then he went on to get a masters in herbal medicine, and he has an honorary doctorate in naturopathic medicine for his just incredible contributions to the field. So after years of clinical practice, he founded Gaia Herbs in 1987.

00;01;47;18 – 00;02;12;22
Unknown
And this is a company that I am very familiar with with my naturopathy career. I think of Gaia as one of the gold standards in herbal integrity and potency and transparency, and in just just providing good, high quality herbs that work to people. And after selling Gaia, the company, he didn’t even consider retirement. As I understand it, he realized that the herbs worked and he had more and him to give.

00;02;12;23 – 00;02;41;09
Unknown
So instead, he launched the Institute of Botanical Research in Arizona and Costa Rica. Medicinal farms in Costa Rica, a fully regenerative organic farm that feels like the Garden of Eden but has a little better soil science. So today, Rick is building on his newest adventure, Conqueror, an herbal product company rooted in regenerative organic cultivation with a mission to create the finest herbal remedies that promote health and vitality for all.

00;02;41;11 – 00;03;01;14
Unknown
So for more than four decades, Rick has been a pioneer and a protector of herbal wisdom, and now he’s an innovator at the intersection of regenerative agriculture, medicine, and planetary health. You can see why I’m so excited to welcome Rick today. Rick, I’m so glad you’re here. I saying, wow, that was great. Thank you so much, Heather, I appreciate it.

00;03;01;17 – 00;03;28;16
Unknown
I want to just start at the beginning, your origin story. How did the herbs find you? It was a spiritual journey. I was actually not in studying, interested in wellness or in any wellness aspect. I was now in college looking to understand philosophy, and I was asking myself a lot of questions about who is God, and which is quite interesting for somebody in the early 20s.

00;03;28;19 – 00;03;50;21
Unknown
And so I wasn’t satisfied with what I was learning in college. And one day I decided I one night I decided I would go out and ask the question, meditate and spend the night under the stars. And I did, and the only thing that came was that I if I want to know God and get closer to God, I need to study plants and get closer to nature.

00;03;50;24 – 00;04;11;11
Unknown
So that was my impetus and I’m glad I did. That was a long time ago, though. Well, when you think back to those early days and in the early 80s. Right. Oh, was there were there was there context, you know, was there things happening culturally or or personally? I think you explain a little bit about that sort of openness door to this life long path.

00;04;11;11 – 00;04;35;13
Unknown
Were you part of like a counterculture movement, or was this very well accepted by your family and people who cared about you, or was it different? I’m essentially saying you ask that, you know, at the time. I don’t I don’t recall that my family really embraced what I wanted to do. I was sort of a self-starter, and I, I kind of moved through life at that time and self-supporting.

00;04;35;20 – 00;05;03;05
Unknown
And it was a journey that I knew I had to do. So, you know, and I’m really glad I did it. And I don’t regard myself as being counterculture, but I was just fitting into a stream of consciousness that I have for myself. And following it. And with that, you know, you had, I guess, this experience under the stars that night, this realization that to get closer to God, you need to get closer to the plants.

00;05;03;05 – 00;05;23;02
Unknown
And did you have a vision, like was there a concrete vision of what you would create at that point, or has a lot of the journey been unexpected? No, it was basically, I need to go study plants. I need to go back to the roots. And I left what I was doing at the time. I was doing part time work in school.

00;05;23;02 – 00;05;55;22
Unknown
After school and in a bank, doing some banking type of work. And I left that work and I went to work in a natural food store, and that was kind of my impetus to join my colleague there, to go off to Utah to study herbs and spend the time in Utah studying herbs. And I spent the time with one of our colleagues, doctor Bill Mitchell and Ed Madison, studying plant medicine, naturopathic botanical medicine with them up in Montana and over in Seattle.

00;05;55;24 – 00;06;25;12
Unknown
So it was quite a journey for me to get started with that tutelage. And then where did Gaia Herbs come from? You know, Gaia was I was after I went through all my school, I was in practice. I don’t know if that was part of my my bio there, but I was in practice for about eight years. I saw about 10,000 patients and it was in a medical clinic with a medical doctor and lots of acupuncturists and a chiropractor.

00;06;25;12 – 00;06;49;04
Unknown
And I was the best herbalist. And so I was responsible for seeing the patients for their herbal protocols. And I needed to go out and gather the medicine, make their medicine, and dispense their medicine. So I handle the whole thing and after so long, you just it became so much. And I decided I would reduce my practice by raising my prices.

00;06;49;04 – 00;07;13;26
Unknown
And I when I almost doubled my prices, my practice almost doubled. So, you know who can explain that? But it is very true. And I decided I would phase out a practice and begin a product line. And I, I had no aspirations for building the guy that became Gaia. But I just wanted to start a small company, you know, just to support myself.

00;07;13;29 – 00;07;38;07
Unknown
But it became a very big company, as you know. Yeah. You know, Bill Mitchell, you mentioned and and he is the person who sort of introduced me to the concept of Gaia, where I feel really privileged. He had passed away by the time I got to last year, but part of our curriculum was watching videos of Doctor Mitchell teaching, and one of them was on this, this deep exploration of of Gaia.

00;07;38;07 – 00;08;03;08
Unknown
So would you just explain what that is from your perspective and why you named the company Gaia? Well, it was you know, it was really my my journey with Gaia was really based on the writings of James Lovelock. And at the time, you know, the idea is that we don’t live on the earth, we live within it, and we live amongst all of the forces and life forms on this planet.

00;08;03;08 – 00;08;30;22
Unknown
So we’re partnership. And and so that implies a very holistic process of relationship and connection and coevolution and it all made sense to me. And I thought what a perfect term for the company, you know, to use that term. And the company had an ethos really, they was thinking of Gaia herbs. So it was I think of like purity and potency and transparency.

00;08;30;22 – 00;08;54;22
Unknown
And this was kind of before those were buzzwords on social media and people talking about their pure, you know, with latest supplement that they’ve got for sale on Amazon. Can you talk about like, how were you guided to do that before it was cool? Well, for me, you know, I just think that if I was going to do it right, I needed to do it right.

00;08;54;22 – 00;09;19;06
Unknown
And what right meant to me was that a herbal product is only is only as good as the herb from which it came. And I needed to control the supply chain. So that’s why we moved the company. Shortly after I found it, we moved it to North Carolina to establish what is now a 250 acre farm. When I was running it, it was 200 acres.

00;09;19;06 – 00;09;49;29
Unknown
And so that was the foundation for purity. Let me grow all these herbs organically. And, you know, I did I grew probably 40 to 45 crops at the time, which was a big chunk of our materia medica. And so it was the foundation of what we would do. And, you know, I just wanted to carry that purity, that concept of purity, into the whole upscaling, you know, the herbs into finished extracts.

00;09;50;06 – 00;10;18;28
Unknown
So that means we needed to extract for purity. We needed to avoid excipients and, you know, harmful excipients. We needed to avoid harmful solvents, which many herbal products at the time, maybe even today, are made from. And we needed to concentrate honoring nature. We needed the total potential of nature in our products, the wisdom of nature. So that means we represent all that’s in the plant.

00;10;18;28 – 00;10;30;28
Unknown
We don’t isolate, we don’t, you know, purify out. We don’t structurally elucidate anything. And that was it was my what do you call my motive up. Aranda?

00;10;31;01 – 00;10;51;21
Unknown
And, you know, creating this M.O., there is more to running a company than just growing the herbs and putting them in a bottle. Right. There’s the leadership and and the business acumen. There are all these pieces. And how did you how did you come to have that to build a large, successful company? What did you use for guidance?

00;10;51;24 – 00;11;17;16
Unknown
I use my heart, my my spirit, you know, my, my, you know, I was meditating for quite a long time by that point. So I used my ability to integrate, you know, spirituality into my thinking, into my leadership. You know, today it’s a little bit different. With my new company, Kokura, we actually formed an ethos for leadership called Regenerative Leadership.

00;11;17;17 – 00;11;42;26
Unknown
And what does regenerative leadership mean? And it’s he’ll be happy to know that it’s founded on the six principles of nature, pelvic medicine. And I’ve elaborated on them and what they mean and leadership and how how they’re used in nature and how nature is the ultimate CEO. Would you mind running through those principles real quick? I will try to remember them.

00;11;42;26 – 00;12;04;11
Unknown
The first one is the these Medicaid tricks. Not to worry, you know, the healing power of nature and you know, the acknowledgment and embracing of the reality, the truth that nature heals. And as long as we don’t interfere, you know, we don’t step in the way of healing processes, then we have a good opportunity to align with the healing power of nature.

00;12;04;11 – 00;12;27;20
Unknown
So what is the second one? Doctor is teacher say, yeah, the actor said a and the doctor, as a teacher, you know, the leader should not be somebody who tells you what to do in an organization, but it should be somebody who inspires, who teaches, who guides you with the greatest wisdom that can be offered in business.

00;12;27;20 – 00;13;14;25
Unknown
And that is the wisdom of how nature guides evolution. And so we need to align ourselves with a higher purpose and a higher intention. And, you know, premium nano cherry first is no harm. You know, and you know, the attitude that when you are a leader, you are not there to create problems, but you are there to set up practices and operations that are, you know, formative and fundamental in guiding truth and guiding wholeness and guiding, you know, evolution of your company and providing support to your people and so many in so many ways, CEOs get in the way of people’s creativity and people’s processes for for contribution to a successful company.

00;13;14;25 – 00;13;39;28
Unknown
So, you know, those are a few. And this was three more, 2 or 3 more that are true lies. Treat the whole and prevent totally chasm and totally totally right totally cause them is treat treat the cause and you know in problem solving you can spin your wheels all day long trying to fix a problem on the level of the problem.

00;13;40;00 – 00;14;14;07
Unknown
But if you step outside and I have done this so often in business, step outside and say, you know, is this aligned to our mission vision values? And if it isn’t that, step away from it, because your mission should define the most holistic approach to your business and totally totem treat the whole person. And, you know, I, I think you have to have respect in business for every employee that that is there to grow your company.

00;14;14;09 – 00;14;41;19
Unknown
So, you know, when you put all of these things together, you realize that, you know, nature is the perfect manager. Nature does this has a way of existence, and why can’t we adopt these principles? I’ve expounded upon them a lot in our company and call them the regenerative principles of leadership, and I think they work for us. Is there an herb that stands out to you?

00;14;41;19 – 00;14;52;01
Unknown
Is there one that is a favorite or has been a particularly good teacher? Well, that’s a great question.

00;14;52;04 – 00;15;20;02
Unknown
I don’t know, there’s so many. If I were to ask you the same question, do you have that one single herb? Well, closer I as I right now, but I think it’s been different over the, over the years like at some stages like oregano has been my favorite. But there have at the moment I think that’s part of why I ask because I just, I have some like licorice tea that I’m having right now and it, it just feels like the right fit for the moment.

00;15;20;02 – 00;15;43;08
Unknown
And it but I think it’s evolved. But I, it’s just curious like the in your journey is there one that stuck out. Well it used to be when I, when I was, studying herbs, I used to love marshmallow root. And, and then I really loved hawthorn when we grew, you know, 200 hawthorn trees on the farm here in North Carolina.

00;15;43;10 – 00;16;12;12
Unknown
Now I’m growing hectares, acres and acres of turmeric in Costa Rica. And I’m in love with turmeric and all of this now is, you know, we never had the vision to grow regenerative Ligaya when I was there and but you know, we’re growing very regenerative in Costa Rica. And to see the regenerative turmeric growing there, it’s just, you know, it’s profound and it’s an amazing teacher.

00;16;12;15 – 00;16;31;24
Unknown
And Ginger comes up for me now like thinking about tropical herbs. Right. There’s I want to get into the regenerative piece. But first I kind of want to make this transition from more temperate North Carolina. You’re outside of Asheville, right? Is where Canada is. That’s where Guy is now. Yeah. And so very different climate than Costa Rica, which is much more tropical.

00;16;31;26 – 00;16;58;05
Unknown
And so was there a shift in there that you were drawn to it, of course, that you’re cultivating with that shift in climate? Oh yeah. We we can’t grow what we grew in here in North Carolina. It’s too temperate. And these crops would not do well. We have a very distinct rainy season, a very distinct dry season. And during rainy season, we’ll get 150in of rain during that season.

00;16;58;05 – 00;17;22;14
Unknown
During a six month period. So, you know, we have to focus on on the more tropical crops that we can grow down in Costa Rica. And I would say we’re growing about 11 or 12 crops there now that do very, very well and that are appropriate for growing in Costa Rica. Oh right. Okay. So the regenerative farming movement, you’re a part of that.

00;17;22;17 – 00;17;49;19
Unknown
This is the ethos from which I was born. Talk us through that. What does it mean to be a regenerative farm. And what drew you to that in particular? Many, many things really are part of a regenerative farming practice. We’re certified regenerative organic by the Regenerative Organic Alliance agencies. You know, they granted our farm in Costa Rica what they call gold status.

00;17;49;21 – 00;18;14;18
Unknown
So the first qualifier is bronze. And to be bronze certified, you do need to have organic practice. To be silver certified, you need to have organic practice. And you need to be fair trade certified. To be gold status, you need to have organic practice Fairtrade certification and you need to apply all of the elements that protecting grow the soil food web.

00;18;14;21 – 00;18;40;04
Unknown
So being involved in a regenerative certified organic farm, that’s gold standard. You know, we go well beyond organic and we are Fairtrade certified. But we include practices like we make our own bio ferments and we make our own biochar, our own bamboo vinegar. We produce our own compost. We grow our own worms meat. We make worm compost tea.

00;18;40;04 – 00;19;10;01
Unknown
We are doing everything that speaks to the soil food web. We’re no tail practice on our farm. That means no plowing. So we’ve taken it to the highest level. It’s amazing when you see the quality of the soil aggregates that we have formed on our on our farm. When you see, in just three years, the population of earthworms growing from 25 worms permit per square meter to 450.

00;19;10;03 – 00;19;37;19
Unknown
You know, when you see in the spring, when the first rains come, the whole farm, you know, a hundred acres looks as though it’s covered with a blanket of snow. But what it really is covered with is all these blooming mushrooms, all this fungi that’s coming out of the soil as an expression of all the, the, hyphae and mycelia that’s already in the soil now coming in and breathing new life.

00;19;37;20 – 00;20;10;15
Unknown
I just rejoice in that because I know we are feeding the soil. You know, you’re you know, you have focused so much in disorders of cognitive dysfunction. And I like to say in a way, our gut is connected to the soil, which is connected to the brain. So the whole gut brain axis is got the interface of our soil and the microbiome in the soil that kind of supports both the gut and brain health.

00;20;10;18 – 00;20;36;12
Unknown
So I focus a lot on soil food web, which is the microbiome. You know, you’ve been at this for for decades. I’m curious about your understanding of people and the relationship between people and plants and how that’s evolved. I feel like you’re kind of getting into that here, but is there do you have like sort of a a framework and how you think about the relationship between people and plants?

00;20;36;14 – 00;20;57;09
Unknown
Well, you know, there’s definitely got it, got it. You’ve got to honor the wisdom of nature as, as, you know, any one of us at any point in our life where, you know, experiencing the tilth of the earth in one way, shape or form or another, you know, we’re interfacing with the health of the Earth. And why not do it with respect and reverence and dignity?

00;20;57;09 – 00;21;31;14
Unknown
You know, there’s there’s wisdom, this knowledge. There’s there’s an orchestration of intelligence at play, at every moment. And we interface with plants all the time, whether we know it or not, through our diet, through our, our medicines and so forth. But we don’t know how deeply we interface with the soil where these plants come from. And, you know, that’s that’s the responsibility that I’ve taken on, is, is really try to bridge that connection between people and plants and which is building a robust microbiome in the soil.

00;21;31;16 – 00;21;57;09
Unknown
Is there something that you wish for patients or, you know, basically people who are engaging with medicine, people who have health conditions, something that they understood about herbal medicine and what kind of gets missed in some of these clinical settings. Can you ask that in a little different way. Yeah I, I guess I’m imagining a patient walking into a clinic with an ailment.

00;21;57;09 – 00;22;21;13
Unknown
And, and from my perspective is a natural path in a conventional clinic. Right. They’re coming in with whatever it is and we’ll just take my space with their aging. And so they got aches and pains and they’re worried about their memory, and they don’t have as much energy as they used to. It’s their I guess. What do you wish that they knew walking into there about the the potential for herbs.

00;22;21;15 – 00;22;45;19
Unknown
Is that people. Yeah. You know, I think the, the wish I would have is that they knew that herbs represent the healing power of nature and that they have the ability to reshape, reset, redesign, reorganize our physiology back to a state of wholeness. And if we step out of the way, as I said, the bees Medicaid tricks that Torah implies.

00;22;45;19 – 00;23;09;02
Unknown
Nature heals when given the opportunity and so we we have to be a co-creator in this journey, in our in our wellness. And what is stepping out of the way? I mean, I mean, as a doctor to your patients, it may mean a lot of things. As somebody who’s working on creating the highest quality plant remedies, it may mean another, different set of things.

00;23;09;02 – 00;23;32;07
Unknown
I’ll give you an example for me. What it means, Heather, is I’m going to grow regenerative now, and I’m going to do it. If I’m going to choose to do it, I’m going to do it to the very highest degree. And then after I take these herbs and harvest them, I’m going to treat them with reverence. I’m not going to extract them with toxic solvents like many companies do.

00;23;32;09 – 00;24;00;03
Unknown
I’m going to use water and organic alcohol to to extract them. I’m not going to dry those extracts using, you know, a myriad of different excipients that include things like maltodextrin and things like that. So I’m not going to put impurities into the product, you know, artificially. I’m going to concentrate those products to a degree where I know they can be therapeutic for the patient.

00;24;00;06 – 00;24;26;25
Unknown
I’m going to do everything I can to understand the delivery system so that I can make this know with the highest opportunity for success. When the patient takes it. So I think of it that way. You probably I would love to know how you think of it. And because I’m sure it’s very different even in my clinical practice, part of the reason I was so excited to talk to you today is every time I learn about herbal medicine, I’m more inspired to use it both personally and professionally.

00;24;26;28 – 00;24;50;03
Unknown
And I think I’m almost like admitting to you right now. Like I don’t use it enough, I don’t use enough herbs and, and I, I, I think to get over that, I think to start using them, I think I feel like there’s a lot of potential. That’s myths now. Lion’s mane. We use quite a bit of, the mushrooms I feel like are are pretty accessible tinctures less so.

00;24;50;09 – 00;25;11;13
Unknown
So things that can be put into capsules feel a little easier for a lot of people, rather than the alcohol extracts. And dealing with, you know, the tincture is just can sometimes be a lot for people. But yeah, I mean, I think I’ve just I’m looking to you for the wisdom so that I can I can then translate that into more benefit for my patients.

00;25;11;16 – 00;25;35;27
Unknown
Kaikoura is a really beautiful name. We talked about the origins of Gaia. I’m curious what Concordia means to you and how it sort of represents what you’re building in this regenerative movement. Yeah. Well taken. You know, the root for that name is Kokoro, which literally translates out of the Japanese culture to mean the connection of spirit or soul.

00;25;35;29 – 00;26;09;09
Unknown
Heart in mind in the creation of all of those. And, you know, for me, since we’re working so much on the, you know, soil to soul kind of concept, it makes sense that we use a name that was, you know, addressing, you know, in its meaning. I happen to feel that kokoro as a name was too masculine. So I changed it to code for, and so the, you know, the name would flow a little bit more and be softer and more approachable to women.

00;26;09;09 – 00;26;38;21
Unknown
And, it felt right. You know, when I say conqueror, it just it just feels like it’s it’s just got more of a softer quality to it. But yeah, it implies this very holistic relationship between soul and heart and mind of beautiful. And then there’s this regenerative practice, that. Yeah, this I it almost feels Asian. Or, kind of Confucius.

00;26;38;21 – 00;27;04;25
Unknown
Right. This, like cyclic, like this regenerative picture. And my mind is like that. Oh, that use sometimes that very simple, drawing that you see in Zen temples or in a, in a spa setting. But the regenerative practices, they also change the quality and the energetics of the medicine of the herbs themselves. Can you talk about that?

00;27;04;27 – 00;27;29;26
Unknown
Absolutely. You know, when when you grow regenerative Li, I’m going to share with something, something with you that still I won’t share it all because we’re developing IP around it. But something we observed on our farm is when you grow regenerative li, you put your crops the way we do it. You know, we’re putting in bio ferments, which, by the way, are made.

00;27;30;02 – 00;27;55;17
Unknown
I mean, I’ll explain it very quickly. We go out and harvest some of the forest for some of the soil, leaves, twigs, branches, bring it back and we mix it with rice, semolina, a little bit of powdered milk, a little bit of coffee hulls. From the coffee processing we put in, a bit of molasses as the feed for the organisms.

00;27;55;23 – 00;28;24;05
Unknown
We add some cinnamon and some cloves. We take all this, mix it all together into a sticky, pasty material, put it in a, 50 gallon sack, tie it, put that sack into a 200 gallon tank, let it ferment for two weeks, and the whole tank is then filled with bio ferments and which are filled with bacteria and fungal organisms, which can feed the soil biome.

00;28;24;07 – 00;28;54;07
Unknown
And so we take this as a foundation for making our own fertilizers, our regenerative fertilizers, our regenerative pathogen controls. And so it’s always going into our soil, onto our plants, either either foliar fed or injected right into the soil. And what we’ve noticed is the biome that exist. You know, you’ve heard in plants, we have to test for the total play count.

00;28;54;09 – 00;29;25;21
Unknown
You know, when we’re testing for purity of our crops, do they contain any microbes, any E.coli, any color forms, things like that? Well, these bio ferments are anti pathogenic to all of those. And they also enable a beneficial organism called Bacillus subtilis, which is a spore forming organism to predominate as almost a protective layer around the roots and around the plants.

00;29;25;23 – 00;30;05;16
Unknown
So when we’re harvesting our regenerative crops, we’re not only getting the value of the crop phyto chemically and nutritionally, but we’re getting a very vast biome or probiotic quality that is a new feature that you haven’t gotten before. And crops that are grown organically or conventionally. Oh, that’s pretty amazing to see when we test and to see when we do speciation on our test, to see all of the microbes that exist in the plant sample.

00;30;05;18 – 00;30;31;04
Unknown
It’s all Bacillus subtilis now. And so do you think this translates into a improved microbiome for a human who’s taking the herbs that you guys are creating, or does it translate into, more balanced immune system or better immune function? Like what does this mean from sort of a practical health level? Well, a Bacillus subtilis is a very beneficial organism and at least gives us a boost to our gut.

00;30;31;04 – 00;31;05;22
Unknown
Microbiology. And that is, as you and I know, that is a foundation for healthy immunity, for healthy cognitive function and so forth. Fascinating that there were that. How exciting. I, I’m curious. I want to shift from sort of the professional to the personal. You, have been at this for 40 years. So you’ve had you’ve had a lifetime to accumulate wisdom and experience, and I’m wondering, like, what are the top things that are helping you to think well and age well?

00;31;05;24 – 00;31;41;17
Unknown
Well, do you have a routine? And, aside from eating, you know, really healthy and, you know, a holistic diet, what does that mean? What does that mean to eat healthy for you? It means eat the foods, choose the vegetables, choose the foods that are supportive to my constitution. Now I am very deeply involved in TCM medicine. And so when I look at my constitution, I’m usually looking at it these days from a TCM diagnosis.

00;31;41;17 – 00;32;10;17
Unknown
Chinese medicine. Yeah, traditional diagnostic approach. I happen to have a bit of dampness in my constitution, and I happen to have, you know, stomach deficiency, as we call it, or spleen deficiency. And I, I need to nurture that. So I’m choosing foods that help to check, dampness that help to improve my stomach, you know, energetics. And you know, I’m choosing more vegetables that are green.

00;32;10;17 – 00;32;37;19
Unknown
And, you know, I’m choosing herbs that tend to promote dry up some of the dampness and, you know, cool down at the same time since my dampness is more heat related. So, you know, which is more of a challenge. But I, you know, I kind of know how to deal with it. So that’s for me. I, you know, I’m able to really bring together a more customized approach to my diet, to my food intake.

00;32;37;22 – 00;32;59;14
Unknown
And then, I’m able to because of where I live in Costa Rica, I have a beautiful yoga shala. So my morning practice is, you know, after I’m up, I go up to the clean up, go up to the yoga shala, and I do a series of yoga postures that are supported from my back. And then I do.

00;32;59;14 – 00;33;23;06
Unknown
I sit up in a lotus position and I well, before I do that, I do a forward bend that stretches me from my low back all the way, touching my forehead to my toes and to stretch my entire spine. And then I’m doing some core exercises. Then I sit in a full lotus and I do tapping. You know what tapping is?

00;33;23;09 – 00;33;59;19
Unknown
I’m using a tapping tool to tap all over my body, you know, like this to help clear stagnation. And, you know, all over from head to toe to toe. And then I do some breathing Oriana Bandha breathing exercises to help build core strength. Then I do a series of, I guess you can call them Restorative Meridian massage. About a 15 minute practice to massage along all the meridians and key longevity points in the body to activate the energy flow.

00;33;59;22 – 00;34;28;00
Unknown
And then after that, I do a series of qigong exercises. That’s all my morning routine. And then that’s followed by sauna and infrared sauna and cold plunge. How long does this all take? Almost two hours. And then in the afternoon, I’ll get in the pool and do a series of 50 laps, which are more, you know, aerobic type of what I call like aqua jogging laps.

00;34;28;00 – 00;34;53;27
Unknown
So I’m lifting my legs up, my knees up to my chest as I’m doing this. And what’s happening there is I’m actually creating more flexibility in my low spine. And so forth. You know, as as many of us age, you know, we start to feel it in our posture, in our spine and low spine particularly, and, you know, and then we don’t get around very much.

00;34;53;27 – 00;35;25;18
Unknown
We don’t stay in motion the way we should. And so I think one of the foundations for aging is, is movement. We have to keep active and and keeping a low spine is as supple as possible is very important. Is there anything else that stands out to you? You talked about movement and meditation and diet. Are there. You also mentioned to me before we started recording, that you’ve had the opportunity to visit many of the blue zones around the world, and you live in Costa Rica, where there is one.

00;35;25;21 – 00;36;05;20
Unknown
Are there things that, are there people who have taught you who have been particular mentors or teachers who have taught you about not just the diet and the exercise and the things we all know, but about what it means to eat truly. Well, absolutely. You know, because I have been going back to Italy, primarily to the blue zones there and this past summer it was interesting because I learned something which I knew, I, I heard one of the centenarians say to me that I didn’t associate with healthy aging, and that is not to entertain worry or mental anxiety.

00;36;05;20 – 00;36;29;12
Unknown
And, you know, and I just thought about that and I said, wow, does that, you know, is that really something that is really bogging us down? Do we spend a lot of our times worrying in a field of anxiety about, you know, events and circumstances and results of things and, and how much of our life do we let go and we embrace?

00;36;29;12 – 00;36;41;05
Unknown
The other thing, Heather, is and you can comment on that if you want, but I’ll just say one other thing is we need to experience more moments of our.

00;36;41;08 – 00;36;49;09
Unknown
You everybody knows what a moment of it is for them. How many moments of video invite in your life every day?

00;36;49;11 – 00;37;25;04
Unknown
And how do you cultivate that? Will you create an environment that’s suitable for, for, you know, evolution suitable for life instead of create an environment that’s toxic for yourself and be able to change it, you know, and this this implies one of the tenants of regenerative living for these long centenarians is connections. You know, I speak about and you speak about as a nature physician about how important the fascia is for a health and well-being.

00;37;25;06 – 00;37;49;20
Unknown
Well, the fascia is, in a way, what connects ourselves and organs and tissues. And when we extrapolate that into society, we have to have a similar web that connects us to society in a healthy way. So we remain active and present and purposeful in our life, right? Yeah, I would I was hoping that you would touch on that.

00;37;49;20 – 00;38;12;08
Unknown
Community and relationships are such an important part of aging. Well, but what does that look like for you? Well, an unfortunately, I live on a mountaintop alone in Costa Rica, so I am making it this starting at Thanksgiving. I made it a resolution to once a month spend at least 4 or 5 days in community with friends, even if I have to go somewhere and be together.

00;38;12;08 – 00;38;35;02
Unknown
And so I think I have to do that because I really feel that’s when I feel the best. And, you know, when I laugh, when I experience partnership, when I experience purposefulness beyond my work, when I can teach to others and inspire others, you know, that’s, you know, in Japanese culture, they say you have to live your ikigai.

00;38;35;05 – 00;39;01;05
Unknown
And throughout the course, ikigai means your life purpose. And I know what my life purpose is. And as I’m aging, it definitely includes teaching and inspiration, inspiring the younger population. If you could pass on just a single message to the next generation of herbalists and healers, what would it be? It would be, you know, think for a moment of how well we’re all connected to nature.

00;39;01;07 – 00;39;30;00
Unknown
And, you know, let’s not forget source, you know, in our work with herbs, let’s embrace source less, embrace the wisdom of nature that guides us and bring it to the conscious forefront and remain in partnership with it. Beautiful, beautiful. So I just want to get your feedback. In the mornings I drink matcha, that comes from Japan, and I put Lion’s Mane and Theanine and stream.

00;39;30;02 – 00;39;52;14
Unknown
It’s an ethanol combo thing and some milk, tea, oil and creatine in there. What else do I put in there? Oh, and some collagen powder. Is there anything I’m missing? What else are that? Is there something else I should be adding to my motto? Blend or there? There are herbs, especially for brain health that I might be missing out on personally and for my patients.

00;39;52;16 – 00;40;18;13
Unknown
Well, you know, we did this, I will say by Copa and we did this interesting study, Heather, at our institute in Arizona at the San Juan University. We we do RNA gene sequencing there. And so we’re looking at the effects in vitro, but still the effects of herbs on genes, whether or not they are up regulating or down regulating genes.

00;40;18;15 – 00;41;16;29
Unknown
And we found with memory, we found some fascinating results with lion’s mane in lion’s mane mixed with the coppa and then a coppa separately from Lion’s Mane. And then, surprisingly, with our seven mushroom mocha product with seven unique mushrooms, as a as a drink and the amount of genes for healthy cognitive function, for memory, the amount of genes that were turned on by lion’s mane with Coppa, a coppa separately and to seven mushroom mocha beverage was probably 20 or 30 genes that supported healthy cognitive function and the number of genes that were turned off that interfere with healthy cognitive function, that contribute to, you know, different brain disorders, probably 15

00;41;16;29 – 00;41;42;12
Unknown
or 20 genes were turned off by the same herbs. And this is a product that you can buy. Well, we tested the coca products. Got it. Our Lion’s Mane product has a Coppa extract that we grow on our farm. Added to it. And then we also tested our separate Coppa and we tested our seven mushroom. Okay. So yeah, you can buy all three of those products, but can I add them to my matcha in the morning?

00;41;42;14 – 00;42;05;09
Unknown
The seven mushroom mocha. You can. It’s a beverage there. But coppa and lion’s mane with the coppa you’d have to take his capsules. But yeah, but the seven mushroom mocha drink powder is delicious and it goes great in most beverages. That’s great. Well, you know, you brought up the Institute of Botanical Research and I’m curious, what is what’s the goal there?

00;42;05;09 – 00;42;27;21
Unknown
What are you hoping to what are the the answers that you’re training? What are the questions? Maybe we’ll start there. What are the questions you’re trying to answer? Well, let’s step back. Why did I do it? When I left Gaia, I wanted to make a contribution to the herbal industry. And I thought I would like to see herbal medicine under the roof of a naturopathic umbrella, and that would make me happy.

00;42;27;21 – 00;42;57;08
Unknown
So I went to Doctor Paul Memon, whom, you know, who was the president at the time of what was at the time, Southwest College in hepatic Medicine, now sponsoring university, of health Sciences. And we decided that we would contribute to the building out of this institute after I sold Gaia. So we did that, and it became a foundation for doing research beyond just the purity in bio activity testing.

00;42;57;11 – 00;43;34;18
Unknown
We wanted to see the mechanisms in which these herbs work. So we did brought in a virologist who did human cell line bioassay, cell line testing on on human cell lines. And this RNA sequencing type of gene expression work in order to give guidance to yes, it’s in vitro. So maybe we can predict fully how these herbs are going to work based on the in vitro results, but at least it will give us direction on what they may do in the body if we were to experience them clinically or in vivo.

00;43;34;20 – 00;44;00;17
Unknown
And sure enough, you know, the research is exciting and that’s what Concord does. It uses the institute for all of its RNA sequencing and bioassay cell line testing for every product. So we have at least, a direction, a supportive mechanism on how these herbs are going to work in the body and to help us guide our structure, function claims.

00;44;00;19 – 00;44;25;22
Unknown
Great. Well, and that integration with a natural school makes a lot of sense because, you know, as natural processes, we’re going to deploy these medicines in practice. I am curious what role you see herbalists and naturopaths playing in restoring ecological health as well as human health. The great like bringing it all together. There’s this regenerative farming practice and adding herbs to medicine.

00;44;25;22 – 00;44;52;10
Unknown
And there’s this bigger vision, I think this global ecological perspective that you have. And I’m curious how you see the practitioners, the professionals in that space contributing to it. Well, you know, in naturopathic medicine, we say that, you know, it’s important to take foods that are highly nutrient dense and right, and, you know, yet we rely on other people to provide those foods for us.

00;44;52;10 – 00;45;30;17
Unknown
So, you know, the interface between regenerative farming, which we have proven undeniably, we have proven how regenerative farming increases nutrient and phytochemical density of our crops. And we know through Rodale Institute who’s done so much research on nutrient density of food crops, how this is changing. And we’re talking about really activating nutrients in phytochemicals like ergo theanine in our foods, particularly in our legumes, ergo, theanine that helps to really create a foundation for longevity.

00;45;30;17 – 00;45;57;19
Unknown
So when I think about this interface between the environment, people who are practicing, the people who are seeking out practice, I still have to come back to where plants, the role that plants play because they represent our food, our medicine, they come from soil that we’re all dependent upon. And more specifically, they come from a soil food web which has been ignored.

00;45;57;21 – 00;46;23;04
Unknown
Yeah, and maybe the ignorance of our soul food web is part of what’s contributed to the proliferation of disease. Without a doubt. I’m sure it’s a big part. I certainly come to the conclusion in my just when I think big picture, what would make the world a better place? It starts with regenerative agriculture. You have less disease if you have higher quality food.

00;46;23;06 – 00;47;06;03
Unknown
It just always comes back to that, in my opinion. And it sounds like we’ve we’ve made John the same conclusion. You’ve been immersed in this for decades. I’m curious what surprised you the most, looking back? What surprised me the most? You know, I, I am such a purist when it comes to making herbal products. What surprises me the most is why are there not more people embracing a similar attitude to manufacturing of herbal products?

00;47;06;05 – 00;47;26;16
Unknown
Is it not just simply the bottom line? I don’t know if I should answer that, but for me, that’s that would be a cop out. You know that you’re doing it just because you want to make more money. I think we have to look at our ethical responsibility. I’ll share with you something very personal. And this was when I was a student.

00;47;26;18 – 00;47;50;07
Unknown
My mom had, amyloid disease, and so it was terminal. My family wouldn’t let me give her herbs until the very 11th hour. And I brought her herbs, and she took a she took that bottle, Heather. And she held it up with two hands and looked up and she said, Please, God, and I hope I’m not getting emotional.

00;47;50;07 – 00;48;10;11
Unknown
But she said, Please God, let these work. And it was right there I realized that did I do it right? It all came back to me. I question myself, did I do it with the very best integrity that I could do it with?

00;48;10;13 – 00;48;44;18
Unknown
And I think that’s that’s what we all should be, you know, bringing into making herbal medicine. We don’t see 99.9% of the people that take our herbs, but we have a responsibility to their wellness. If we’re going to choose to make herbal products for them. You know, I can relate and certainly resonate with what you just described of the profound interaction between healer and patient and showing up to that every day and having this question of like, did I do it right?

00;48;44;21 – 00;49;15;09
Unknown
Did I do it? Did I do the best I could? Did I am I showing up in integrity with whatever your art is, right? Whether you’re a healer or an herbalist or a painter or a banker or whatever, or a care partner for someone? This intention, right? It’s it’s living with intentionality. It is so beautiful. You use that word intention and and also confidence and conviction.

00;49;15;12 – 00;49;51;16
Unknown
I found that that’s a big part of what makes the herbs work. Your confidence in your conviction and and what you’ve put into this enlivens the healing potential of these herbs. Do you believe that? Do I believe that? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I’ve experienced that. Yeah. It’s true. I’ve actually seen it in practice with with an MD, I practice with who is prescribing Chinese medicines by just giving out, a little prescription slip to fulfill at the front desk in his patients with them, come to me and say, well, Doctor Doyle’s herbs aren’t working.

00;49;51;19 – 00;50;16;07
Unknown
And I said, well, let me let me go through. And let’s talk about each other and let’s, you know, have a discussion about why these are recommended. And then they, they would take the IRB and then they would start getting results. And, you know, just breeding conviction in confidence is a big part of healing. And then people would say, oh, well that’s just placebo.

00;50;16;09 – 00;50;36;29
Unknown
Yeah. And yeah, I my my response to that is like it’s it’s actually multifactorial. Right. It’s like you give the herbs and they can do what they can do. But then when you actually infuse potency in them through the intentionality, that is the shift, I think. So I think it’s so true. I love how you use the word intention.

00;50;36;29 – 00;51;07;12
Unknown
It’s a beautiful word when it when when you apply it to, you know, the giver and the receiver. Yeah. To both. You have this opportunity to retire. You sold a large company, and you could have kind of just been like, all right, I’m going to kick my feet up and relax. But you seem to be accelerating and maybe I maybe that’s just my perception, having read your bio, but, like, is that what is that true?

00;51;07;12 – 00;51;32;10
Unknown
And to what keeps you inspired to keep building, to keep putting the effort in? Well, it’s it’s just, you know, it’s it’s what I said when we talked about the centenarians, you know, we all are born with our ikigai, our purpose. And for me, I’m really yes, I’m a herbalist and I receive these wonderful accolades for what I’ve done.

00;51;32;12 – 00;51;55;06
Unknown
But at the end of the day, I’m a visionary and I have a purpose, you know, and and I want to be sure I leave a legacy that that can continue on. That was my next question. Is where is your legacy if at your. I don’t mean to be morbid, but you know, your eulogy, where does it sound like?

00;51;55;06 – 00;52;22;26
Unknown
What is your legacy? What do you mean? You know, right now I’m working with the government of El Salvador to transform the country into a regenerative agriculture country, which is big. And we’re working on building a very, very huge project that can set the foundation for a whole new stream of pharmaceuticals, of of botanical type drugs that are made with the integrity that we’re talking about.

00;52;22;28 – 00;52;49;02
Unknown
And that would be my ultimate legacy is to is to, you know, get a transformation started with an example like we can do in El Salvador. President Bulkeley is very interested in what we’re doing, and we’re having lots of conversations. And it’s it’s really inspiring to see how a whole country is starting to embrace regenerative agriculture. That is exciting.

00;52;49;10 – 00;53;07;23
Unknown
Wow. You know, this has been a really rich and generous conversation. I’m so grateful to you for coming. I want to make sure people know how to find out more about Kaikoura, about you. And if you have other wisdom you’re excited to share, I want to, you know, give you the floor. Well, that’s very kind of you.

00;53;07;24 – 00;53;39;10
Unknown
Well, people can reach, look us up on our website at UW dot to Coral life.com. And that’s the way to connect to our website. You can follow us on Instagram or on Facebook at Cooper Life. And you know, you can also follow me on Instagram through Rick Scalzo. But, you know, I think the important thing is when we talked about those those principles of nature path medicine and I love I so, you know, I’ve done so many podcasts now.

00;53;39;10 – 00;54;05;04
Unknown
And as a naturopathic doctor, I so loved chatting with you because of that connection on these principles that we share. But to enliven them here on the show and talk about how they can also be, you know, enlivened in business, they could be enlivened in our personal life and our family life. I think that to me is very exciting, you know?

00;54;05;04 – 00;54;31;21
Unknown
So I would I would hope people would take anything, you know, really look up the six principles of naturopathic medicine and begin to expound upon their application into all aspects of life, rather than just naturopathic medicine. Beautiful. Rick. It is a true privilege to have you here. I just can’t thank you enough. Your your life’s work is really a reminder that herbal medicine isn’t just about the plants, right?

00;54;31;21 – 00;55;01;20
Unknown
It’s about relationships with the land, with the soil, with our bodies, with the communities that we nourish and that they nourish. And then the whole planet. Right. You know, from Gaia to Kaikoura and from the forests of North America. And as Philip said, the forests of Costa Rica. I think you’ve shown over and over again that it’s possible to work with integrity principles and also be innovative and to respect the earth, to respect the humans and the lifeforms on the Earth.

00;55;01;23 – 00;55;32;11
Unknown
And you really I think you have elevated the herbal industry and you’re also a there’s you’re a light that shines the way for people to age with vitality and purpose and a sense of this innovation and creativity and acceleration, even as you’re aging. And so I really appreciate you for showing up here and for sharing your wisdom and your some of your stories and this vision for a future where people and plants and plants and the whole planet can really thrive.

00;55;32;18 – 00;55;39;27
Unknown
It’s really been an honor and a privilege to have you here. Thank you. Thank you, Heather, it’s an honor to chat with you, and I hope I hope we can do it again.

00;55;39;27 – 00;56;04;21
Unknown
Thank you so much for listening to the Think While Atwell podcast. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, please take a moment to subscribe. Leave a review and share this episode with someone you care about. It’s one of the best ways to help others discover tools and inspiration for aging well, to stay connected, get bonus resources, and never miss an episode.

00;56;04;24 – 00;56;14;18
Unknown
Head over to doctor Heather Sanderson, dot com and join my email list. Until next time, keep thinking. Well, an aging on purpose.