THINKWELL

AGEWELL

Mary Ellen’s Legacy: Courage, Love, and the Right to Choose

00;00;00;00 – 00;00;50;14
Unknown
That’s how she wanted to live her life, and that’s how she wanted to be remembered. She thrived in her life. She thrived during the protocol, and she thrived at her death. She went in with such courage, such fortitude. Such. I know what’s best. Today’s conversation is deeply personal and profoundly important. I’m joined today by Keith, whose beloved wife, Mary Ellen, made the incredibly difficult decision to end her life through medically assisted dying in Switzerland last year following her journey with dementia.

00;00;50;16 – 00;01;14;19
Unknown
This is not a light conversation, and it’s one that we enter into with deep care and deep respect. Mary Ellen story brings up strong emotions and for many very firm beliefs. You may agree or disagree with the choices that she made, but I invite you to listen today with an open and compassionate heart. I want to be clear from the start that I am not recommending or endorsing this path.

00;01;14;21 – 00;01;36;12
Unknown
As someone deeply committed to improving cognitive health and helping people find hope, even in the face of a dementia diagnosis. There are other options to start with. First, as we explore what it means to age well on this podcast, however, we must also be willing to have the hard conversations about what it means to die. Well with dignity.

00;01;36;12 – 00;02;07;25
Unknown
Autonomy, compassion. These aren’t just words. They are deeply personal values that shape how we live and how we face the end of life. There is a saying that I aim to live by, that you can’t judge anyone until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. And that couldn’t be more true. Here, Keith is sharing the story not to spark a debate, but to honor Mary Ellen’s life and the deep, profound love that they shared.

00;02;07;27 – 00;02;46;27
Unknown
And also to invite a fuller and more nuanced conversation about what choice, peace, and presence can look like. Even in our final days. In my clinical practice, for some, just knowing that they have Xanax in the medicine cabinet can bring a little bit of relief and comfort. Even if they never use it. And my hope today is that learning about the option that Mary Ellen took at the end of her life can bring a little bit of comfort to some of you that a sense of agency can actually open us up to more joy, to more connection, and to living with the time that we do have, rather than in fear or feeling out of

00;02;46;27 – 00;03;10;00
Unknown
control. I thank you so much for joining us today and this very tender, brave, courageous space. I hope that you will find, as I did, that Keith’s story about Mary Ellen, about their life together and how she chose to end it, is really much more about living a full life. Thank you. Keith, thank you so much for joining me today.

00;03;10;02 – 00;03;40;20
Unknown
Thank you for inviting me. It’s my pleasure to be here. I first want to just honor Mary Ellen. Can you tell us about who she is? Well, Mary Ellen was, is and remains to be an extraordinary person. She was lived an understated life. She did not Tudor on haunts. She really lived by example. From the moment I met her to our last words together.

00;03;40;22 – 00;04;16;02
Unknown
She was strong, committed, resourceful and extremely dynamic. She was someone that I admired from the moment I met her and continue to admire her throughout our life together until the very, very end. She lived life. I had the privilege of watching the eulogy that you did for her in the backyard celebration of her life, and there was a theme of intentionality that she really did things on purpose.

00;04;16;04 – 00;04;43;07
Unknown
Can you give some examples of that? Oh, absolutely. We had a joke amongst ourselves and amongst all our friends, and it was just such indicative who Mary Ellen was. And if she would always say safety is no accident. She was cautious. She was reserved. She was a bit timorous at times, and she always had this. Let’s be careful.

00;04;43;10 – 00;05;13;02
Unknown
And so she was. We lived that way. She lived that way. And it was not the way I was living my life. So I adjusted to her life. And so, in the eulogy, I brought that up, and then I added many other flags to her saints and such as, Oh. Penmanship was no accident. She had beautiful, beautiful penmanship.

00;05;13;04 – 00;05;40;24
Unknown
She was a book keeper. She was a always careful about the things that she said. Her picture taking was no accident. Whenever I would take pictures, she would have to review them all. So a good picture is no accident. A healthy lifestyle is no accident. Friendship is no accident. Love is no accident. And of course, I added a good husband.

00;05;40;24 – 00;06;16;03
Unknown
It’s no accident. So, She lived a life of intention. She planned her future. She was generous. She planned every aspect of her life. And what I learned early on is she was planning for her death as well. Long before she showed signs of dementia, I could just see what she was reading. Who she donated to groups such as Compassion and Choices.

00;06;16;10 – 00;06;44;13
Unknown
And I just thought she was just being generous. I didn’t realize that there was a back story that I watched her practice all things to improve cognitive health long before she needed to. She would eat with her non-dominant hand. She would do games. She loved games. Just things like that. And she was always talking about, you know, this is good for your brain.

00;06;44;16 – 00;07;24;04
Unknown
So again, you mentioned intention. And back then I just said, oh, it’s just Mary being Mary Ellen. But as it proved to be that she had this thought that this could happen, of course, based on her family history, her grandmother, her uncle, her mother all died of dementia and she witnessed all of their deaths and knew that if this were to happen, that that was not how she wanted to finish her life.

00;07;24;06 – 00;07;58;12
Unknown
Did she serve as a caregiver for her her family members? She was a a wonderful daughter. But no, she was never a frontline caregiver. Impropriety involved in watching their demise? Absolutely. And helping them through, moving them from the family home to a smaller homes to assisted living, to memory care, to a funeral preparation. This beautiful daughter. So she started to notice cognitive impairment.

00;07;58;13 – 00;08;31;21
Unknown
Can you walk us through a little bit of the timeline? Up until when we met? Yes. You know, as you know, a patient with dementia is aware of it before most others. And there’s the workarounds, the hiding, the disguising. And I’m really not quite sure how long that went on. But of course, I could see that there was a change.

00;08;31;26 – 00;08;53;23
Unknown
We loved to play games and she was so good at games would have people over for games, card games, board games, dominoes. And she was really good. And she was the one to beat. And then all of a sudden I realized, wow, she didn’t win that hand. And oh, well, you know, then you just kind of move on.

00;08;53;25 – 00;09;20;07
Unknown
And I guess that was, in retrospect when I first saw it. That’s unusual. She was still working. The pandemic started. She had to move to her. Our home for her office. And so all of a sudden, I’m a little more involved in her day to day work life. And she would call me in and say, oh, I need a little help with this.

00;09;20;09 – 00;09;57;29
Unknown
Usually computer related. And so I was sitting by her, helping her with certain things that normally she would be able to achieve on her own. And then other signs, as I mentioned earlier, penmanship. She had this style that, as I had mentioned before, anyone would be so envious at this perfect, perfect penmanship. And then it was just slowly going away to the point where it was scribbled block letters going almost vertical.

00;09;58;01 – 00;10;30;16
Unknown
And so we would talk about it and it was like, what’s wrong here? And, and then one summer, maybe 4 or 5 years ago, we just had a heart to heart. And we both agreed. Well, we we have to explore this. But prior to that, we were having visitors friends over and they would corner me and say, you know, what’s with Mary Ellen?

00;10;30;19 – 00;10;56;16
Unknown
You know, she doesn’t seem to be quite like, on top of it like she used to be. And she used to be. She was in her 50s at this point. Yes. 55 is when she was officially diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. So, in discussion with a friend, she had said, I just read this book. It was by doctor Dale Bredesen.

00;10;56;18 – 00;11;33;04
Unknown
And I shared that with Mary Ellen. And Mary Ellen says, well, let’s read the book. And this is before she died, not. And we read it and and we’re so hopeful. We thought, wow, there’s a way out. And so at that point, having we both read the book, I knew it was time to get professional help. So then we arranged to see a neurologist.

00;11;33;07 – 00;12;01;14
Unknown
But she goes through the standard tests in the neurology office. You know, it is a it takes about an hour. You know, a few days later, we get the diagnosis. And no surprise, Mary was not surprised. I was not surprised. It was like, okay, but we have this other method. And in Mary’s mind, she only had one option.

00;12;01;17 – 00;12;34;00
Unknown
And that was to end her life when she felt it was the right time. But now. But now we had another option. Here was this blueprint of what we can do. And it was a tremendous, uplifting piece of information. Mary was always in complete control of her life. And here she had the opportunity to take control of this.

00;12;34;02 – 00;13;07;21
Unknown
The neurology, they just kind of say, I’m sorry. You know, you’re kind of on your own. And, we would have been on our own without this blueprint of maybe a way out. So we embraced it. We jumped into it. I knew I needed help to work within this complicated protocol. And I knew I wanted a functional MD.

00;13;07;23 – 00;13;44;15
Unknown
And so I found one. And, he was very much aware of the protocol. And so it was like, great. We have a team now. And from there, we found you just searching there. You popped up and you offered, an in-home program. We just signed up for it. And we were so thrilled that our team was in large.

00;13;44;17 – 00;14;16;09
Unknown
And we have this expertise to help us through this. But Mary is very realistic. She said, okay, there’s this two approaches. And she never lost sight that the protocol is where we’re at, what we’re going to work on. We’re going to devote everything we can to it. But don’t forget. She would say, I don’t want to go to memory care.

00;14;16;10 – 00;14;49;01
Unknown
I’ve seen it. I don’t want to do it. So she referred to it as you have said, Xanax. She would say, I want this in my back pocket. And every time we would move in that direction, it was, yeah, I want this in my back pocket. So I was working to pass helping Mary with the protocol. And then knowing that this is a long shot.

00;14;49;03 – 00;15;16;16
Unknown
Mary was diagnosed with a Moca score of 11. We came to learned that that was low. And I witnessed one test that she took. And I could see that they were in for people listening in the Moca scores, the Montreal Cognitive Assessment said, this is the way that we put a number on how severe someone’s cognitive decline is.

00;15;16;16 – 00;15;37;16
Unknown
And 26 and above is normal. It’s a score out of 30. And Mary Ellen had a score of 11. And what we see is just like in cancer treatment, right. When you’re diagnosed at stage one and you can initiate treatment, you have much higher confidence. When you’re diagnosed with stage four, it’s harder, it’s more involved. It requires more resources, more time, more effort.

00;15;37;18 – 00;16;00;27
Unknown
And the odds aren’t as good. And so we really part of the conversation here at Think about Age was about getting early intervention, about measuring and testing at those first signs. Now we didn’t have the research. We didn’t know as much as we know now in 2020 and in 2015. So there’s no fault for anyone who didn’t get that help right out of the gate.

00;16;01;00 – 00;16;19;14
Unknown
I think the narrative has been for so long, there’s nothing you can do. The neurologist has a few medications and they don’t help that much. And so for people now who are listening, please initiate treatment, start the redesign protocol as early as you can. If you know you have genetic risk, get started before you have symptoms. By all means.

00;16;19;16 – 00;16;53;11
Unknown
But for Mary Ellen, unfortunately, by the time you were learning about the Edison protocol, she was already in that pretty relatively late stage dementia. My experience of her even with a relatively low Moca score, was that she was accomplished, that she was deeply intelligent, that she was in control, that she was going to decide her fate, and that whatever she was doing in the protocol, with her diet, with exercise, with figuring out what the mold was coming from, with any of these pieces, she was all in.

00;16;53;11 – 00;17;20;06
Unknown
She was intentional and she was fully present, and she was all and and she had this amazing cognitive reserve is what we call it. She had clearly read a lot, experienced a lot, had been very sharp throughout her life. And to see her change, I’m sure was was really hard on you and her. Oh, clearly. Yeah, it’s a it’s a tragic story.

00;17;20;09 – 00;17;55;08
Unknown
And, to witness it is very difficult to live it for her was extremely difficult. But I’ve always said she made it as easy on me as as possible. Her compassion for me, her patience with me was remarkable. And I’m trying to practice all of that to compassion and patience and care and intention. And she’s doing the same thing.

00;17;55;14 – 00;18;31;00
Unknown
She realizes that it’s just not hard on her. She was so committed. She she was so honest with her condition. She never denied it. She never forgot it. She always remained positive. And I think the protocol allowed her to remain positive. The protocol was hope. And hope is such a wonderful thing. Hope is how we grow. Hope is what we aspire to.

00;18;31;01 – 00;19;06;03
Unknown
We all wish. We all hope for an outcome and some of those outcomes are possibly not achievable even in our everyday life. I hope I make the light, it just might not happen. Mary, I hope that this is going to work, but we both knew it would be a miracle. We called it a Hail Mary and she never became lost in that this was going to work.

00;19;06;06 – 00;19;37;10
Unknown
However, she tackled the protocol like it was going to work. I watched her three times a day at the kitchen counter, counting out the countless pills, the tinctures, all of the steps for two years. And she would shake a bottle, a kiss. I think we’re low on this day. I okay, that was my job. I was the procurement agent.

00;19;37;13 – 00;20;03;01
Unknown
And then we’d go upstairs where we had our inventory of pills and look at them in the list, and she’d be right over my shoulder, and she would be so thankful that I was there ordering and counting and making sure she always had something. But she was smart enough to shake about. But she never brought an empty bottle to me.

00;20;03;03 – 00;20;33;06
Unknown
So, seeing her resolve, seeing her commitment made me follow the same path. The commitment, the resolve, the hope. I don’t really buy into a false the notion of false hope. As I said, hope is hope. It is what gets us out of bed. And if it if you don’t achieve that, well, that’s that’s not false hope. You just didn’t achieve it.

00;20;33;08 – 00;20;53;21
Unknown
And that was the, you know, the gift, the protocol. And the other gift of the protocol was it gave the two of us a focus, were working on this together, and we’re doing more than just walking around the block or do or doing more than just watching TV. What we’re going to do is we’re going to we’re going to beat this.

00;20;53;24 – 00;21;23;08
Unknown
We so wanted to beat it because she deserved to live a full life. She deserved to live the life that we had planned, that she had planned from the day she took a job right out of college and worked at for 30 years, she was diagnosed the year she retired. So there was a lot of dreams, a lot of plans that we just couldn’t carry out.

00;21;23;10 – 00;21;59;17
Unknown
So that’s why she deserved to to win this one. And there’s also we both thought we’re going to show those neurologists and they they warned us don’t go down this path. We could both see that this was the right path. It deepened our commitment. It deepened our love. It deepened our goal. Achieving. We wanted to continue this great life that we we had together.

00;21;59;19 – 00;22;23;14
Unknown
So I want to just double click on this this idea of hope and false hope and versus false hopelessness. Sorry to hear from the neurologist. There’s nothing you can do. And then to hear from through the Bateson protocol through my work that, hey, there are these things you can do. They’re complex. And, there are supplements involved and behaviors involved, but you can do them together.

00;22;23;14 – 00;22;50;25
Unknown
And there is this kind of guiding light. Although there’s not guaranteed outcomes. Right. So so this is this is nuanced. And I think that this is an important topic of conversation. And is it worth it to go down a path where there’s hope but not a guaranteed outcome? And in Marion’s case, we didn’t achieve that outcome. Her mocha score did not improve her condition, did not get better.

00;22;50;28 – 00;23;29;17
Unknown
And it was heartbreaking for everyone who knew her. And yet it sounds to me like maybe what you’re saying is there was still value in going down the path. Absolutely. As I’ve said before, we had something to do. Mary couldn’t read. She certainly couldn’t drive. She was having difficulty walking. I mean, she’s having difficulty dressing. She was having difficulty cooking everything, but she was still able to perform the requirements of this protocol.

00;23;29;19 – 00;24;01;02
Unknown
Cognitive reserve is something that you mentioned, and that was so well exemplified in what she was able to do. She was able to pull this complex system off and devoted to it in this far more than the, the supplements. It was the diet. My goodness, she was so adamant about the diet and and and we ate that way.

00;24;01;05 – 00;24;36;21
Unknown
I was the cook. We ate well, we ate often and with enjoyment, and that was this keto diet. But Mary, as I mentioned earlier, she was always preparing for this inevitable disease, which proved to be inevitable. And so her diet was, you know, easy to move towards the keto diet. Her exercise program was easy to do, take it up a notch.

00;24;36;24 – 00;25;11;16
Unknown
Her dental hygiene was easy to take it up a notch because it was just who she was. So it was. We were lucky we were not changing lifestyles 180 degrees. We re just pushing them a little farther down this protocol path. So, it made it that much easier. And if I slip something onto her plate that maybe she was suspect of too many carbs or sugars, she’d say no.

00;25;11;18 – 00;25;47;21
Unknown
So funny. When eventually we brought in more help the year Mary died, she had 60 hours of paid help a week. The year before, she had six hours. So the progression was was occurring. But her alertness to the protocol was the last to go. It was really the last year ago. So one time to I had a cook come in and she was providing wonderful keto meals.

00;25;47;21 – 00;26;21;18
Unknown
And then and Mary would say to me, she say, hey Keith, you got to pick up your game here. Yeah, you got to take a few of these recipes that, that I’ve been enjoying. So she always brought a humor. And I tried to reciprocate with humor. She knew she had a good life, and she knew that it was going to come to an end and whether it was sooner or later.

00;26;21;18 – 00;26;42;13
Unknown
So that’s kind of how she went into this. My understanding of some of her decision, her decision wasn’t wholly hers. And I want to get into that. But part of what I understand about how she made it was in large part because she didn’t want you to be a caregiver to her and at some point, also, caregiving is not a one person job.

00;26;42;13 – 00;27;04;01
Unknown
This isn’t a 40 hour week job. It is a 24 hour a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year job when someone has severe Alzheimer’s. And you guys were starting to face that with these 60 hours a week or, excuse me, 60 hours of of care that year. I’m curious about your experience as a caregiver now.

00;27;04;01 – 00;27;33;29
Unknown
I’ve seen the deep love firsthand how deeply you loved Mary Ellen. I can see that it was apparent your respect for her, your admiration of her, the humor in your relationship, how healthy your dynamic was and the burden of caregiving, even in the healthiest relationship, is real. Can you speak to that? Oh, yes. My admiration for caregivers has no bounds.

00;27;34;02 – 00;28;17;07
Unknown
I never had to reach that level of care because Mary didn’t didn’t, didn’t want it. She wasn’t going to let it go that far, you know, to witness the such deterioration in a, in a person’s behavior and then to be their caregiver. It’s it’s it is very difficult. We were fortunate that I could bring help in. Mary was fortunate in that she didn’t want me to be the primary full time.

00;28;17;09 – 00;29;15;21
Unknown
She allowed me to leave for extended periods because she could still take care of herself. But, you know, she needed help driving. She needed someone to entertainer by taking her, you know, to the park, things like that. So she always let me do what I’d normally been able to do until I couldn’t. You know, the moment that she realized that she was going to have to reach into her back pocket is when I said to her, I go, Mary Ellen, if something happens to me, it’s not being hit by a train, but I could just break a leg or end up in the hospital for any period of time.

00;29;15;23 – 00;29;49;23
Unknown
You will have to go to memory care. And she would respond with one that is going to happen to you. I go, well, I know, I know, but but in the end, at this point, she was having more trouble with, the protocol. I could see she was confused with the countless bottles in front of her. All of a sudden they all look the same.

00;29;49;26 – 00;30;22;03
Unknown
Her ability to dress. I mean, she knew the progression was no longer in our control, and that’s why I brought it up. So a couple days later, she said, okay, I’m, you know, I’m ready. And I knew what she meant when she said, I’m ready. You know, just just to back up a bit. So we’re deeply committed to the protocol.

00;30;22;06 – 00;31;04;23
Unknown
But she’s also expressed throughout this journey that I don’t want to go to memory care and so, like the author, Amy Bloom in the book In Love, it was tasked on me like it was task on Amy to figure it out. Okay, you’re not going to memory care. We know what that means. How do you do it? Amy’s book is such a wonderful word that describes what she and her husband went through and what Mary Ellen and I went through.

00;31;04;25 – 00;31;32;13
Unknown
It’s it’s, you know, it’s it’s kind of a how to but it’s a, it’s a how to how to follow your loved ones wishes even when they’re so difficult. It’s how to forgive yourself. It’s how to love your spouse no matter what. It’s how to well, find a way out. Do you mind if I set the stage a little bit?

00;31;32;14 – 00;32;00;23
Unknown
Kind of, legally. All right, so in the United States, it’s illegal to help someone in their life. And my mom will say, if if you ever start to notice me going downhill, if I’m going to need memory care, take me out back and shoot me. You can’t do that. It’s not an option. But it’s an expressed wish to not need this sort of care, to not lose the capacity to care for yourself.

00;32;00;25 – 00;32;22;21
Unknown
And so to your point, what does that mean? What do you figure out? And you live in the state of Oregon. So you and Mary Ellen lived in Oregon, live in Oregon, and there is physician assisted suicide is an option there with a caveat. You have to have a six month prognosis. And with dementia with a dementia diagnosis, people can live for decades with dementia.

00;32;22;21 – 00;32;44;05
Unknown
So unlike cancer, diagnoses, are ALS, Lou Gehrig’s disease, some of the other neurodegenerative diseases where you end up with the six month prognosis, you can use this state, you know, the legal it’s legal in a handful of states. I have a friend whose mother was diagnosed with ALS, and they were able to use this option in the state of Hawaii.

00;32;44;07 – 00;33;11;00
Unknown
And there are a handful of states where this is an option. There are no states in the US where physician assisted suicide or dying is available to those suffering with dementia. And so not only are you tasked with figuring this out, it’s not available by law. Where you live. And I think that there’s a bigger conversation around this and homes that have, you know, what is death with dignity.

00;33;11;03 – 00;33;40;25
Unknown
And there are people who procure things so that they can do this independently. And is that dignity right to have to do this alone and hiding and fear? There’s a wonderful conversation. Another book that I want to offer as a resource to listeners is The Inevitable by by Katie Englehart, which provides a conversation around less of a how to manual, but really a conversation around how we want to end our lives, particularly when faced with a diagnosis like dementia.

00;33;40;27 – 00;34;13;13
Unknown
So you ended up with this option in Switzerland at Pegasus, right? That’s correct. And can you take us through how you found that resource and then how you navigated that with Mary Ellen? I was fortunate that I had. Dialog with with friends limited French because for a long time Mary did not want it to be known that she had Alzheimer’s.

00;34;13;16 – 00;34;43;08
Unknown
The two of us lived with this knowledge for well over a year before we presented it. But a dear friend who I could talk to, unbeknownst to Mary until she caught me and she laid into me. But a couple of days later, she apologized and said, I get it, Keith. You know this is your life, too. You have to do what you need to do.

00;34;43;11 – 00;35;13;03
Unknown
So what was her hesitation in sharing with other people? Shame. Embarrassment? Lack of dignity. This is a, And it was too bad because, you can’t keep this a secret. You display it all day long to anybody who is close, and that’s what she was trying to protect. But eventually she could see that. I think she said we.

00;35;13;03 – 00;35;37;06
Unknown
Well, because of my urging, because of my need. Once she announced it, I could see it was a great relief. It was a relief. Do you think that part of her wishes that she had maybe shared that with people earlier? No, I don’t I don’t think so. It was kind of her, her timing. It were I also think maybe the, the protocol is going to turn this around.

00;35;37;06 – 00;35;59;10
Unknown
This could be our secret case. I’m working on it. This maybe no one’s going to know. It really needs to know. It could have that could have been it. So then sharing it, it gave you community to share that burden with it. And then allowed her to drop some of the the sort of hiding right to have more acceptance.

00;35;59;10 – 00;36;29;16
Unknown
Absolutely. So, to get back to your question, you know, the how do I learn the option that before I say that, I want to back up just a step about when she announced it to our families and this was another when she announced her diagnosis, her diagnosis. Yes, this is another feature of the protocol that has a dividend.

00;36;29;18 – 00;37;03;13
Unknown
She could bring this horrible news to the family and family members, probably have heard this before with other friends or acquaintances or family. So it’s just this bombshell. But what Mary could say is, I know this is bad, but I’m following this path. There’s this protocol. I’m really hopeful, and we’re going to do it. And I could just sense the relief that the family members got from that.

00;37;03;16 – 00;37;29;18
Unknown
It was like, oh, wow, I didn’t know that. Way to go. Oh, you can fix it. And I could see it was an easier story to tell. And it was a much easier story to hear. So I’m sure, especially coming from someone like Mary Ellen, who was so, I think, convincing, but also had that ability, this innate ability to execute.

00;37;29;20 – 00;38;05;16
Unknown
Absolutely. Yeah. So, that was an un known feature, her positive note about the protocol. But back to going to Switzerland and and Mary Ellen and I referred to this option. There is a protocol. And then there was this other option of not going to memory care. It was our code word for it was Switzerland. So whenever the topic came up, it was just Switzerland.

00;38;05;17 – 00;38;40;14
Unknown
She knew what that meant. So I was able to talked with a friend and I said, Mary’s always said that she would not want to live with this disease. And he went home and this started going on the internet and said to me, he’d texted me and said, hey, look at this. And that was Pegasus. So I had.

00;38;40;17 – 00;39;04;15
Unknown
An option doing it at home. No way. Here all the time. Take me out back. And when and when people say that to me, I go, I get it. You don’t want to live your life that way. But what are you doing about it? Who have you told? And it’s almost flip it, you know, just take me out back and I could see that.

00;39;04;15 – 00;39;46;18
Unknown
No, that’s not really how this works. Because I witness Mary living this out for maybe 20 years. She was not just say, take me out back. She was fully aware that this is a process, and during the process is what we’re doing together as a couple estate trusts, wills, contact telling friends we we don’t have any choosing to tell, but anything that she could do telling lawyers, getting it written out, she didn’t really know at the time how it was going to be done, but she just kept it moving along.

00;39;46;22 – 00;40;16;23
Unknown
I mean, I knew early on in our relationship that this was something that was needed to be explored. So that’s what I tell people who say, well, just take me out back. I go, what are you doing about it? And if you’re not doing anything, then your wishes might not be fulfilled, right? If if we want to age well and we want to die, well, then having those hard conversations and seeing them through is important.

00;40;16;23 – 00;40;40;20
Unknown
Otherwise, there may be a point where you’re not the one in control, where you’re not able to express your wishes in a way that’s legally binding anymore. Other people are making decisions on your behalf, and there’s no guarantee they’re going to be making the ones that you want, unless you’ve really put this into action, you know? And I noticed something interesting in what you shared around how your friend was the one who found Pegasus.

00;40;40;22 – 00;41;08;22
Unknown
And I’m curious about that dynamic. You’ve pointed to of essentially assisting her. Right. Not with the last step with ending her life, but with figuring out what those steps were going to be, what you would have to do, and that that must be a really, really impossible situation to be in. And so having a friend be the one to find the resource almost makes it a little bit easier.

00;41;08;29 – 00;41;39;14
Unknown
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It was a godsend. I mean, this was a compassionate, a dignified and legal way to do it. This was the answer to just take me out back. No one’s going to take you out back. And so here it was. And in in Amy Bloom’s book is she was exploring all kinds options, all dead ends until she learned to Dignitas.

00;41;39;14 – 00;42;13;15
Unknown
And so it was like her. I said, oh, here is a path, but you have to be ahead of it. It is not something you can wait for too long with. So you’re right, it was extremely difficult to go down that path and it was up to me to figure it out. Mary’s on the protocol and I’m on protocol as well.

00;42;13;15 – 00;42;50;16
Unknown
But I’m also going down this path. So I find Pegasus and then I apply a little before that, I told Mary, hey, look, Mary, this is an option. And again, okay, I want it in my back pocket. So she gave me permission to go down that path. So when it was necessary to bring Mary in on that path, I was reluctant because I didn’t want to express doubt in the protocol.

00;42;50;16 – 00;43;18;29
Unknown
She was working so hard, so dedicated to it. I didn’t want to do anything to undermine it, but I was forced to pursue this other path. But whenever I brought it up, she never rejected it. She never doubted my commitment. She could say, okay, take it. The next step I won in my back pocket. So I did. And, you have to apply.

00;43;19;01 – 00;43;50;22
Unknown
I applied for her. I answered her questions, but I later read it. I had to to to not. Well then notice like I’m she’s losing control I now I’m in control. So that went on for a year. I bet that we’re working our way down two paths. And this is really when you talk about the application there’s a criteria that has to be met.

00;43;50;22 – 00;44;13;09
Unknown
Just like in the state of Oregon, you have to have a six month prognosis to be within that criteria. And in Switzerland they have a different criteria. But this is a threading of the needle of sorts, because particularly with dementia, you need to be able to be the one as as the person going through this process. You need to be the one who is making the decision.

00;44;13;09 – 00;44;33;24
Unknown
That needs to be clear to multiple medical professionals. And also you need to be correct me if I’m wrong. Can you describe the process? You need to be able to administer it yourself. Drink the fluid. You cannot be dependent on someone else to physically help you through the process or to make the decision for you. It’s absolutely true.

00;44;33;26 – 00;45;13;23
Unknown
Each step, the patient has to be fully aware and the ability to communicate that to the doctors, the psychiatrists who evaluate. And there’s multiple times that that occurs. So once Mary said, all right, we’re going, we’re going down this path. I then we take the next step. And, Pegasus was a tentative they were responsive, you know, they were there.

00;45;13;25 – 00;45;40;15
Unknown
Maybe not as quickly as you might want, maybe because, of course, you just want to make sure that this is all moving smoothly and quickly, but it doesn’t. It’s through no fault of their own. It’s a it’s complicated. And maybe by design, right? You don’t want something like that to go too quickly because it’s irreversible. This is not absolute.

00;45;40;20 – 00;46;12;07
Unknown
This is the most final of final decisions. So we started that psychiatric evaluation on zoom. And Mary Ellen and I would be side by side in front of our iPad and the psychiatrist would start asking questions, you know, like what? What’s the today’s date? How old are you? And these are questions. And my new Mary might not be able to answer correctly.

00;46;12;14 – 00;46;43;16
Unknown
And I’d be sitting side her wanting to give her the answer. And that’s a very unusual position to be in. I mean, I want her to get this right so that she could die. It was very, well, unusual. I’m your cheerleader here, but what am I cheering for? All I could say is I’m cheering for you. I’m cheering for what you want.

00;46;43;16 – 00;47;18;22
Unknown
As hard as this is for me. But Mary really didn’t need my help. She conveyed. Maybe she didn’t know the date. Maybe she didn’t know her own birth date. But she knew what she wanted. She knew what it was going to take to convince a psychiatrist that again, cognitive reserve. She pulled it out. So this process went on for, I mean, I don’t know, a month or two months.

00;47;18;29 – 00;47;48;03
Unknown
There’s a lot of paperwork. I had to provide, birth certificates for both of us, marriage certificates for both of us. It’s funny, I, I would like rehab. Like, I have to have these certificates. I would contact the different states. I would get them. Take weeks. And you have to send all this to Switzerland, and then they expire.

00;47;48;06 – 00;48;21;11
Unknown
And we were postponing this as as long as we could. Okay? It’s all there now. They would say this. Pick a date. That’s up to us. Pick a date. And it wasn’t something that we were looking forward to doing because. Because Mary still. Mary. She still walking. She still entertaining friends. It’s still Mary Ellen and they’re cautioning us don’t wait too long.

00;48;21;13 – 00;48;48;29
Unknown
But this time had lapsed to where the certificate were no longer valid because they had been issued a few months before. So I had to do it all over again. And now I’m getting nervous because are we running out of time? So I scramble again and get them off to, And just as a side note, when Mary’s gone, I’m back home, empty house, going through our papers, her stuff.

00;48;48;29 – 00;49;17;19
Unknown
I’d never gone through her stuff before. I look in her file cabinet and there’s all those certificates under B birth certificates under and marriage certificates. She had them all. There, I got this. Why didn’t I? She’s just that way. Of course she did. Of course she did originals. And I was tear my hair out trying to get all this stuff done.

00;49;17;22 – 00;49;51;09
Unknown
And so you picked a date eventually in April of 2024. April 27th? Yes. Well, I might have said April 24th. And they said, I’m sorry, that’s not going to work. House April 27th. Who said, okay, so, it was in in motion. I learned that these organizations in Switzerland do not see an awful lot of Alzheimer’s patients.

00;49;51;09 – 00;50;22;10
Unknown
They do see some, but not the majority. It’s a minority because of the difficulty, because of the of the timing. I suppose some families wait too long and the patient is unable to defend themselves, to express their desire. Mary was able to express her desire to the very end. And those last questions are asked at the very end.

00;50;22;12 – 00;51;00;21
Unknown
And if she faltered, they would say. Sorry or goodbye, and you’d walk together. You would walk out the door. So they’re very adamant about this being the patient’s decision. We could have gone the week after the diagnosis. These organizations, their requirements are a lot different than ours, you know, medical aid and dying is, as you mentioned, you’re on your you’re on your deathbed already.

00;51;00;23 – 00;51;42;08
Unknown
There is absolutely no hope. And, I don’t really feel that that is, you know, a dignified in a way to go. Plus, they’re required to do every step on their own. It’s archaic, and especially when you witness another system which is so compassionate, they’re so good at it. Loving, compassionate, light hearted. If you need to be light hearted, they they recognize the gravitas of this decision and greet you with that in mind.

00;51;42;10 – 00;52;08;23
Unknown
So can you share what Switzerland was like when you got there and Sarah came with you? A friend of yours also accompanied you. Mary Ellen and I, we traveled a lot. We love to travel. We love. And, that was I plan to do a lot more. But traveling with an Alzheimer’s patient, it’s it’s not easy. We did it in the best style we possibly could.

00;52;08;25 – 00;52;31;15
Unknown
We moved to the front of the airplane. We we relied on limousines. We relied on the finest hotel. And Amy Bloom talks about doing this as well. Absolutely, absolutely. And it was it was Mary’s money. And she knew it was her money. And she said, hey, this is my money, let’s go big. And so it was our last trip together.

00;52;31;15 – 00;52;59;12
Unknown
And it just we loved Switzerland. We’d been there before. And one thing that I would recommend is, you know, to do that to the best of your ability. But if you can’t, that back of the plane is, is okay, you know, you get there. And if this is an expensive process, you know, regardless of where you sit on the plane, it’s not available to everyone.

00;52;59;18 – 00;53;26;05
Unknown
No, it’s it certainly isn’t. And it is expensive, but in the scheme of things, memory care is also extremely expensive. Tell us how expensive that is. Memory care starts for and many places at 6 to $8000 and goes up to $20,000 a month. Yes, a month. And so, and, you know, this is something I’ve had patients tell me it breaks my heart every time I hear it.

00;53;26;05 – 00;53;53;13
Unknown
But I’ll die when the money runs out. And, I think it’s another way of saying take me out back rate. And, and so the financial but there’s a very real financial component to this find Switzerland. And then by registering and using the services of Dignitas or Pegasus is is not free. No, it’s not but financially it’s a bargain.

00;53;53;15 – 00;54;20;14
Unknown
You know, it’s, 2 to 4 months of memory care, 2 to 4 months of memory care. And Mary was so clear. I worked too hard. I spent an entire career from college to retirement in the public health system. And by God, I’m not going to just let this money go. And she said, Keith, I don’t want your money to go.

00;54;20;14 – 00;54;49;04
Unknown
I’d rather you see it and live your life the way we have lived our life. So the financial aspect is, is key to this, and it’s easy to see. Yeah. So you guys, you guys did it right. But you have the ability to go and stay in the nicest hotels. Yeah. Be chauffeured around, sleep on the plane and really enjoy the time that you had together.

00;54;49;05 – 00;55;15;00
Unknown
Yeah. Yes. It’s a funny word to use. Enjoy. But we did the best we can, and we decided to go over a couple of days early. And because we love to travel. And then I, we got there and I could see like, oh, wow. Maybe we were. Maybe this is too difficult. Maybe we shouldn’t have expanded the time together.

00;55;15;03 – 00;55;45;15
Unknown
Because it was so difficult moving Mary from just place to place. It took two of us to move, make this happen. But then, oh, I. The sun came out and we we took a train ride to Lucerne, a beautiful city in Switzerland. Then we could see the mountain that was reliving what we’ve enjoyed so much. And that was really a wonderful day and we all enjoyed it.

00;55;45;15 – 00;56;17;14
Unknown
And Mary Ellen was is Mary Ellen as can be. She was wonderful. She was curious, she was attentive, and so was like, oh, it was a good idea to go early. We had this throwback to where it was was the reason, I suggest, if you can, to have someone accompany you. She’s just a logistics, a man traveling with a female with Alzheimer’s.

00;56;17;17 – 00;57;02;08
Unknown
I mean, going to the airport, going to the restroom. I mean, that’s not a common you know, I and I had to at that point, she needed an escort wherever she went. So having a companion, a dear friend, was invaluable. And then once you’re there, you know, the stress on me having someone to look at, time schedules at the airports, at the trains, or make a reservation at a restaurant, or just to get us home or get us back to the hotel.

00;57;02;10 – 00;57;23;08
Unknown
Was. It’s priceless. I have to imagine this is one of the more stressful events of your life, right? And and by far, probably one of the most emotional. By far. And so to have somebody there to double check. But the arrangements are made. Yeah. You know, where you’re going. You know what time you need to be there.

00;57;23;11 – 00;57;57;23
Unknown
I can imagine is just priceless. Priceless. I, I it’s hard to imagine doing it alone. The other thing that I learned in our friend suggested is start with the wheelchair at the airport. In this time of reduced air airplane services, they’re still really good about those requiring a wheelchair and of course, when I suggested it to marry, it was no, I don’t need that.

00;57;57;25 – 00;58;41;21
Unknown
Well, okay, well, I said, but it was there. And, once we landed in San Francisco, they were there with the chair, and Mary looked at it and goes, okay, if you insist. And wow, from there all the way, it was first class treatment, regardless of what class you were in the airplane. It was a remarkable idea, and I didn’t see it because I could Mary, you know, she could walk, but front of the line, I mean, they stopped everybody from getting on the busses, everybody from getting on the airplane in order to get Mary Ellen through.

00;58;41;28 – 00;59;09;14
Unknown
It was it was remarkable. So there’s such a simple free tip that the some without the traveling with some with Alzheimer’s. We this comes up often in my clinical practice and with coaching participants as well. It’s this rub between wanting to have the these experiences, these shared experiences together and feeling like maybe we don’t have that many more left.

00;59;09;16 – 00;59;32;26
Unknown
And yet traveling with dementia. I mean, people with dementia can be disoriented day to day in very familiar places, let alone and a totally foreign environment with jet lag across time zones, traveling, and being on a plane. The oxygen is lower, right? So you can feel the ramifications of all this. You’re exposed to germs that you might not be otherwise and you could fall ill.

00;59;32;29 – 00;59;56;05
Unknown
This can be a big stressor for people who have full cognitive capacity, let alone someone without. And so this this rub between, you know, do we do we take that one last trip? Do we have these last experiences? Do you have any advice? It sounds like this is a great takeaway, right? Just get the wheelchair service, check the disability box and take that that service so that it can make it a little less stressful, a little bit easier.

00;59;56;05 – 01;00;50;01
Unknown
Do you have any other bits of advice for traveling with some with dementia? It’s just what every care take caregiver knows. Patient slow it down. Don’t argue, don’t correct. Mary and I think, patients who have the cognitive ability to take this trip is aware of what’s going on. And they, at least in Mary’s case, was she was willing patient, knowing that any stress on her was worth worth it because that’s the the goal we are achieving any means was worth the end.

01;00;50;03 – 01;01;25;11
Unknown
Are you even the sharing about that last day, April 27th? Yes, for sure. It’s such a, powerful emotional day. You know, we’re there for four days and we’re all in work. Everybody knows. Well, they’re while they’re why they’re there. And here we’re trying to have a normal life eating well, walking window shopping, going to cafes. I mean, we could do all that and enjoy all that.

01;01;25;19 – 01;02;01;15
Unknown
But there’s this end zone that you’re so aware of and it’s surreal. It’s, it’s tragic. It’s it’s tragic to Shakespearean proportion. There is no good outcome here. We know what we’re doing. And as you get closer and closer to that, it just gets harder and harder. You know, you sort of have this vision of Switzerland, and it’s a true vision.

01;02;01;15 – 01;02;30;09
Unknown
It’s a beautiful place. It’s picturesque. It’s highly filled. You know, and we all have that concept of this country. So you expect that this clinic on the Hill, it’s going to be so inviting. Well, it’s it’s not really how it is. It’s not a practice freely embraced. Even in Switzerland. They are not. They’re not in downtown.

01;02;30;11 – 01;03;03;00
Unknown
They’re not next to the hospital. They’re kind of off the beaten path. And as you drive in, you’re being escorted by the professionals from Pegasus, and you go, oh, this is it. It looks like a cross between an auto yard and a strip mall. It’s like, what? And they they explain it to you why? We’re not we’re not welcome in places around town.

01;03;03;07 – 01;03;39;09
Unknown
It’s. We don’t want to be known as the capital of this. So that’s like, okay, get used to it. But once you’re in, you’ve forgotten that even though it’s not a hospital like setting or a salon, it’s just they’ve made the best of what they’re given. So. They give you one, give me another round of tests, Mary passes, and they just say, you know, take your time.

01;03;39;09 – 01;04;16;14
Unknown
And we sit around the table. We tell it stories. We’re telling where we’re from. You know, it’s congenial. And then they show us, you know, the the room. And it’s a nice hospital like setting. And the lay Mary down upright in a bed and, they show her the mechanism. And for some, it’s just you just flip, you turn a valve, and then that lethal dose, you know, and there’s this system.

01;04;16;17 – 01;04;42;21
Unknown
Mary didn’t quite have that ability, but they have another one. Where I have to do is just push a stick and that drops the drip and and that before that, they’re just it’s just take your time. Everybody leaves the room except Mary Ellen.

01;04;42;23 – 01;04;49;17
Unknown
And I.

01;04;49;19 – 01;04;55;05
Unknown
And that’s where, you know, we have our.

01;04;55;07 – 01;05;15;27
Unknown
Our last talk and I said, hey, Mary. I mean, I can take care of you, you know, let’s let’s let’s get out of here. I can take care of you.

01;05;16;00 – 01;05;20;19
Unknown
And she says to me.

01;05;20;21 – 01;05;28;12
Unknown
No, Keith, it’s my turn to take care of you.

01;05;28;15 – 01;05;56;18
Unknown
We did a lot of crying. And then we would find things to laugh about. And then we’d cry, and I said, okay, okay, I get it, I get it, and. And I got it. I mean, this wasn’t, it was a it was my Hail Mary. Let’s let’s do something else. So I said, okay, are you ready? She says, I’m ready.

01;05;56;21 – 01;06;37;12
Unknown
And in the people from Pegasus and I friend come back, come in and you know it’s goodbye. And are you ready? And she bumps into it. And just like they said, it’s she just. It looked like she just fell asleep. But painless. Quick, compassionate. But I knew she wasn’t just falling asleep in to me, it was very, very difficult.

01;06;37;15 – 01;06;54;03
Unknown
I. I couldn’t stay by her side. I, I mean, it was so quick and she was gone and I witnessed something that.

01;06;54;05 – 01;07;00;23
Unknown
I never.

01;07;00;25 – 01;07;06;06
Unknown
I never imagined that I could witness.

01;07;06;08 – 01;07;22;04
Unknown
I kind of freaked out. I kind of had I had to leave. I couldn’t, I, I didn’t see sleep. I saw death.

01;07;22;06 – 01;07;25;16
Unknown
It was.

01;07;25;19 – 01;07;32;17
Unknown
It was terror. I saw it felt like terror.

01;07;32;19 – 01;07;42;18
Unknown
What I witnessed, I left the room.

01;07;42;20 – 01;07;50;07
Unknown
Eventually, I could come back into the room.

01;07;50;10 – 01;07;58;20
Unknown
She did it. She got. She got her wish.

01;07;58;22 – 01;08;49;22
Unknown
I was there to honor her. Her wish? She was such a strong, confident. Accomplished, fun person. That’s how she wanted to live her life. And that’s how she wanted to be remembered. She thrived in her life. She thrived during the protocol, and she thrived at her death. She went in with such courage, such fortitude, such. I know what’s best.

01;08;49;25 – 01;09;16;06
Unknown
This is by far what’s best for Mary Ellen. It’s best for her. And she knew what was best for me, even though at the time I don’t know it. This is not what’s best for me. I, I, I can care for you. I don’t want to. If you’re alive, I don’t miss you when you’re gone, I miss you.

01;09;16;09 – 01;09;44;07
Unknown
One of the things that she said on her bed was, Keith, I don’t worry about you. She knew that I would survive. She knew that I would thrive and I would thrive better with this outcome than if she’d lived this out the conventional way.

01;09;44;09 – 01;10;16;00
Unknown
She had another wish, I understand, which was to share this story. And that’s part of why you’re here today. It’s true. Referring back to Amy Bloom’s book, the first page of her book, and the only thing on that page is a quote from her husband, Brian, I want you to write about this. And when I.

01;10;16;02 – 01;10;44;23
Unknown
Read that page, I just knew that that’s what I knew. Mary Ellen wanted that, and I knew this book was going to tell my story. And I’m I’m glad I read it afterwards. I didn’t need to read it first. We had our method. I didn’t have to do all the homework that Amy did. I knew what we were going to do, so I read the book afterwards.

01;10;44;23 – 01;11;23;23
Unknown
However, I did listen to her podcast before we both did, and when I read that, I knew that that’s what Mary wanted. And you’re right. That’s why I’m here. And I’m so thankful that you wanted this story told. I avoided you until your office reached out to me, and here I am. And Mary would love the idea that you and I are here.

01;11;23;26 – 01;11;59;18
Unknown
When we were going through your programs, Mary Ellen, I would say, God, isn’t she cool? Wouldn’t it be great if we could be her friend? That’s how we thought of of of you. And here I am. I’m your friend. It’s a privilege. You know, I felt the same way. I relate to Mary a lot. I, I felt like I understood her, and I, I, I when I grew up to be like, you guys have.

01;11;59;20 – 01;12;38;19
Unknown
And, It’s it’s hard to lose her. And I think that one of the things that really struck me was that you, you guys didn’t feel like you could talk to me about this process, and that was is part of the goal. And having you here today is to start to have these really hard conversations and make it a little bit more, okay to to discuss these things because they feel impossible when you’re in it.

01;12;38;22 – 01;12;57;01
Unknown
I think when you can have a team and the community around you makes the really, really hard stuff a little more bearable. Yeah, yeah.

01;12;57;04 – 01;13;27;20
Unknown
Mary didn’t want to be an advocate of this. She just wanted people to know that there’s a real choice. Medical aid in dying his practice in 15 or 16 states is not an option. She wanted people just to know, to have a choice, to have it in her back, their back pocket. And that was all she wanted to.

01;13;27;22 – 01;14;05;22
Unknown
It is just to know, And I didn’t know how to, to do that. In Mary so obituary, it’s mentioned we had professional help with the obituary and as a journalist it the writer put the who, what, where, when and how at the first paragraph and we go, you know, she went to Switzerland and we go, no, that’s, that’s not, that’s not the lead.

01;14;05;24 – 01;14;32;12
Unknown
And the journalist says, oh, you want to bury the lead eagle? Yes, pardon the pun. We want to bury the lead, but we don’t. We want it mentioned. So it was put at the very back of the obituary. We wanted a we wanted Mary’s life to be told, not her death, that that will come later. And so Mary was clear she wanted that in her obituary.

01;14;32;14 – 01;15;06;28
Unknown
It’s not like the phone rang off the hook, but for me to tell me more. Tell me more. It it didn’t happen. Friends. Family was, you know, so supportive. And it’s. I want to go that way. They would say so. Oh, gosh. In the even those who didn’t know her very well were just in all that. This is how she would want to do it, and the courage that it would take and the unselfishness that it that it would require.

01;15;07;00 – 01;15;37;27
Unknown
You mentioned to me that you have family members who are deeply religious, and that there was a little bit of tension in that, I wouldn’t say necessarily say tension, hurt, hurt. And Mary knew that it was going to affect some dear people in our lives. And she really felt bad about that. She didn’t want to cause this upheaval in their lives.

01;15;38;00 – 01;16;17;05
Unknown
Here is somebody they respected and loved. And the pull, this was so contrary to their beliefs. But over time, I’ve seen their. All their thoughts soften and their respect for Mary grow. I mean, their beliefs are the same. And we honored those over. We honored those beliefs. But it was gratifying to see that. That they.

01;16;17;07 – 01;16;57;20
Unknown
Understood. They understood that this was her choice. And they also understood what it meant for me that I didn’t have to live this life of Alzheimer’s for the next 10 to 15 years. So that two softened their firmly held beliefs, and came to accept it and to forgive. I’ve heard them say I forgive, and that was a missing piece for me to hear that they forgave.

01;16;57;23 – 01;17;02;28
Unknown
Forgiving Mary is forgiving me.

01;17;03;00 – 01;17;37;08
Unknown
And this two is an A, an unfinished piece that we’re where we’re finishing having this this discussion with you. Now, what’s next for you? Keep. Oh Mary’s right. She didn’t have to worry about me. I’m a very full, exciting, healthy life. But I carry.

01;17;37;10 – 01;17;45;17
Unknown
This level of sadness with me. You know, it’s kind of like this.

01;17;45;19 – 01;18;27;14
Unknown
Bird on my shoulder. You see two birds that fly in synchronicity or a symbiotic relationship I have a symbiotic relationship with. Suffer with sorrow. She’s just right there. I’m just going to, like. Like this. And I just got this little piece. Sometimes it’s bigger, sometimes it’s smaller of this sorrow, this missing. But along with that sorrow and sadness, there’s this deep respect of this woman who showed such courage and blessed me with her life and blessed me with with her love.

01;18;27;17 – 01;18;58;05
Unknown
So that is, I’m forever grateful for that. You know, I’m just trying to make my life look as good as it always. Look, let’s just make it look good. Lit my life like we had been living with. It looks good. Maybe. Maybe deep down, good will catch up to me in I think it. Well, I have to, because I have to honor Mary.

01;18;58;10 – 01;19;26;08
Unknown
If I fall off the deep end, you know, that is. Then what was it for? What was it exactly? What was it for? I owe it to her. To live the life that we could not live together. But I can live. So, I’m curious. I’m a parent, as you know. Do you think that you might have navigated this differently if you had had children?

01;19;26;11 – 01;19;56;01
Unknown
Absolutely. Certainly. It would have been different. And I’ve think about it all the time. What if a child said no? Well, Mary had the strength to say I’m sorry. It would be different. I mean, it could also been such a wonderful thing that a family, as many families will do, would do this together. You know, to have the support of children during this would have been a wonderful help.

01;19;56;04 – 01;20;40;06
Unknown
But then again, you know, there was not the support. It would just been that much harder. It could just so alienated a family. But yeah, Mary Ellen and I often said, well, we’re glad we don’t have kids. This would not make it in any way. Yeah, I got a joke for you. Let’s hear it. So there’s this couple standing in front of two dear friends, and, they say, you know, after a lot thought, we’ve decided not to have kids.

01;20;40;08 – 01;20;47;13
Unknown
And we’re going to tell the kids tonight.

01;20;47;16 – 01;20;53;23
Unknown
It was a joke that Mary Ellen and I loved.

01;20;53;25 – 01;21;25;24
Unknown
There’s one more that you, to all during the eulogy would have Mary’s favorites about how handy you were. Oh, yeah. You know, the eulogy is tough for a spouse. Really tough because you don’t know if you can pull it off because you cry so much. So much, cried so much. I cried so much that I miss it because it’s such a reminder.

01;21;25;27 – 01;21;47;05
Unknown
It’s such a lovely reminder of who you miss and how strongly you miss them. But for some reason it changes over time. So I, I miss, I miss the crying, but I can cry, which is not as often.

01;21;47;08 – 01;22;05;08
Unknown
So so in a eulogy and how you’re just asking for it and it’s not. It’s not the tell. You want to cry in front of a crowd. So I didn’t know if I was going to do it. I had a dear friend. I handed him the eulogy saying, if I can’t do this, would you please read it?

01;22;05;10 – 01;22;43;07
Unknown
But I, I guess I like a crowd and I go, this is I can do it. But I realize that I gotta make sure I can get through this. So I would add humor to it. Both Mary Ellen and I loved each other’s sense of humor. I mean, loving hers more than she loved mine. And, so this story I told to the to the crowd was, that, I like pretending that I’m a handyman because I was.

01;22;43;07 – 01;23;05;02
Unknown
So all my friends are handymen. They do it themselves. So I kind of just go, well, if you’re going to be a handyman, you got to do it yourself. So I would attack all the projects, do the best I can, sometimes with success, sometimes without success. And. And, Mary, I just got a kick at that. I would that I would try and she really got a kick when I was successful.

01;23;05;02 – 01;23;34;22
Unknown
And she felt sorry for me when I wasn’t, but. And sure to kind of ease whatever ego, blow I had when I couldn’t do it. She said, Kathy, you know, I love the idea that you can fix things and want to fix things. And I really love that cute little carpenter built you walk around in. But what really turns me on is when you call a plumber who is so sweet, you know, so gratifying.

01;23;34;24 – 01;24;08;05
Unknown
So, that’s what really she really like. So, but she is remembered there. I hope that she is honored by our conversation today. Is there anything else you’d like to share about Mary Ellen or about your experience? No, I think we covered a lot, and I appreciate the opportunity and I appreciate, your ability to get me to talk about something that’s really hard to do.

01;24;08;05 – 01;24;36;28
Unknown
I don’t think anyone else could have done it quite as well as you did. Thank you. Thank you for your courage. Thank you for showing up here. Your phone all the way down to San Diego to share this story. And I feel confident. I feel certain that there will be many people out there who will get some piece, that we will reduce some suffering for people out there who are navigating, navigating something similar to who you are and Mary’s story.

01;24;37;05 – 01;25;03;16
Unknown
But thank you, thank you, thank you for being here to share with us, keep you well. Mary thanks us too. Thank you so much for listening to the Think Well Eat Well podcast. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, please take a moment to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with someone you care about. It’s one of the best ways to help others discover tools and inspiration for aging well.

01;25;03;19 – 01;25;25;04
Unknown
To stay connected, get bonus resources, and never miss an episode, head over to doctor Heather sanderson.com and join my email list. Until next time, keep thinking. Well, an aging on purpose.