THINKWELL

AGEWELL

Lymph, Life, and Longevity: Aging Gracefully with Linda-Anne Kahn

00:00:00:01 – 00:00:22:09
Speaker 1
The crucial thing is that we don’t move. Everything just. Inflammation is worse. The fascia tightens up. Your brain doesn’t work. So that to me is just key. The exercise, the good nutrition and then being outside and being in the sunlight that really contributes to a happy, healthy, long life.

00:00:22:11 – 00:00:44:17
Speaker 2
Welcome back to the Think Well Agewell podcast. I’m your host, doctor Heather Sanderson, and today I’m honored to welcome a true pioneer in holistic healing. Linda, an icon with over four decades of experience in integrative therapies, Linda and is a board certified Lymphatic Therapist, Clinical Aroma therapist. She was sharing some secrets with me just before I hit record.

00:00:44:18 – 00:01:19:11
Speaker 2
Integrative health coach and founder of Beauty Clinic and Lymphatic Therapy Services in San Diego. She brings a rare depth of wisdom to her work, combining scientific understanding of the lymphatic and immune systems with a nurturing, individualized perspective on care. Her expertise spans from lymphedema and lymphedema that’s a mouthful support, detoxification, hormonal balance, skincare and emotional healing, Linda and commitment to helping others end with vitality, grace and connection is deeply aligned with the mission of this podcast.

00:01:19:13 – 00:01:42:00
Speaker 2
And more than that, Linda and is just this shining beacon of how to do it. I was telling her that I want to be her when I grow up, because Linda and is she is someone who is aging with more vitality and more grace than the vast majority of people I have the privilege of getting to know. So, Linda and welcome.

00:01:42:02 – 00:01:51:21
Speaker 1
Thank you so much. It’s so beautiful to be on this podcast, and I’m just so proud of you for all the work that you do. I, you just I look up to you as a leader.

00:01:51:23 – 00:02:01:15
Speaker 2
Oh thank you. You have had a rich and diverse career. But what originally drew you to lymphatic therapy?

00:02:01:17 – 00:02:26:01
Speaker 1
Well, that’s a very interesting question because I actually have a connective tissue disease called lip edema, but I didn’t know it at the time. So it’s interesting how you get drawn to things and then find out, oh, this is what you have. So I started out in my husband’s pharmacy selling skincare and loved it so much. I went to school and became a beauty therapist.

00:02:26:03 – 00:02:51:00
Speaker 1
And then when I was there, I did a short course on lymphatic. Somebody came. I was from South Africa, and over the years when I moved to America, I found myself getting drawn to all the conferences on lymphedema. And so I became, you know, trained with three schools actually, and became very involved with that at the same time as doing my clinical aromatherapy.

00:02:51:02 – 00:03:14:10
Speaker 1
But when I was in Austria, certifying as a lymphedema therapist is when my instructor, my teach, I was now 95. Hildegarde whittling her because that was in 1992 and she said, you have lip edema. And it was like the doors opened. Of all the struggles that I’d had my life up until then.

00:03:14:12 – 00:03:33:21
Speaker 2
I want to understand the symptoms of lip edema, just in case anybody you know, listening might have some of those similar issues, but can you first connect the dots between the lymphatic system generally and aging and how this impacts healthy aging or maybe even not so healthy aging?

00:03:33:23 – 00:03:57:08
Speaker 1
Some system we say is your it’s your detoxification, it’s your waste clearance. And I explained to people, it’s like we take the garbage out every Monday morning. The garbage collectors come, they take out the garbage. During the week. There’s more garbage piling up. Now imagine this is your body and imagine if the garbage collectors were your lymphatic system.

00:03:57:10 – 00:04:25:14
Speaker 1
And imagine if they didn’t come the following week and two weeks and three weeks and four weeks and all of this waste would be collecting in the street. So now you can’t get waste out of the street, but you cannot get anything into the house because it’s blocked. So your lymphatic system is crucial for helping to drain toxic wastes from the connective tissue, including from the brain.

00:04:25:16 – 00:04:53:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, this gland fabric rinsing that happens at night during deep sleep. This is a big component. Maybe we’ll come back to that, you know, because maybe not everybody’s heard of the lymphatic system, that there are these types of lymphatic massage. I want you to describe that. But also I feel like often people will say, oh, I know someone whose lymph nodes were removed because they had cancer, and now they’re at higher risk for cellulitis, and they maybe have swelling they can’t get.

00:04:53:23 – 00:05:11:21
Speaker 2
If there were lymph nodes in their groin that were removed, they get more swelling in their legs. They’re at more risk for infection. Or maybe if it was in their armpits, in the axilla, they have issues in their hands or in their arms. So I just want to make sure that everybody’s kind of thinking about the lymphatic system and think they know about it.

00:05:11:23 – 00:05:25:01
Speaker 2
Are there other ways that you kind of describe, you know, lymph nodes, the lymphatic system? How are people like, how do we want to think about this? How is it different from the circulatory system or the the blood vessels say yes.

00:05:25:07 – 00:05:48:17
Speaker 1
So the lymphatic system runs parallel with your bloodstream. And my office, I have a picture that I show all my patients that runs parallel with the bloodstream, and it’s just below the surface of the skin. And their initial lymph vessels in the skin. And those go into deeper vessels, and all the waste that are collected from this interstitial fluid go into these vessels.

00:05:48:20 – 00:06:15:00
Speaker 1
And we now called it lymph. So it’s a very light, clear liquid that runs along these lymphatic vessels. And it’s a one way it goes from the tissue directly to the blood stream. Actually it enters the bloodstream right here in the above, the clericalism tie a pathway that it goes in and then goes into the bloodstream and to the heart, and then it is eliminated via the kidneys.

00:06:15:02 – 00:06:50:19
Speaker 1
So it’s this fluid that is running throughout your system. It’s actually connected with the fascia, which I’m busy actually right now doing a talk that I’m going to be doing in three weeks time at the Faster Resource. And I’m connecting the fascia and the lymphatic system. But it’s so important. It’s also important for your immune system. So you mentioned if lymph nodes have been removed and then it gets stagnant and people can get lymphedema, then it is very important because now the nutrients are not getting to your cells properly.

00:06:51:00 – 00:07:14:00
Speaker 1
And it’s very easy to get an infection, which we call erysipelas or cellulitis. So the lymph system is intricately connected with your immune system. It is part of your immune system. The other parts are you have lymphoid tissue, you have the spleen. Of course, you have all the lymph nodes all over a system that’s not spoken about enough.

00:07:14:00 – 00:07:21:13
Speaker 1
And it’s something that I’ve been I work on every day and have been studying this in depth for the last 35 years.

00:07:21:15 – 00:07:42:03
Speaker 2
It’s incredible to have an expert like you share, because I couldn’t agree more. I feel like we don’t talk about the importance of the lymphatic system enough, and a lot of people, maybe they don’t have this extreme of having had lymph nodes removed or having the body or condition that affects us, but there are common signs that the lymphatic system may be in need of support.

00:07:42:05 – 00:07:46:20
Speaker 2
What do you typically hear from patients who are struggling? There?

00:07:46:22 – 00:08:05:11
Speaker 1
Well, I just got a phone call this morning from a new patient who’s going to be coming in, she said. I twisted my ankle, I was running and I twisted my ankle and I continued running. The next day it was a little bit sore. The next day it got worse and it was a little bit swollen. Then I stopped running.

00:08:05:11 – 00:08:38:12
Speaker 1
Anyway, it’s a long story. Eight weeks later, MRI, venous Doppler X-ray. She even weighed 40 aerial everything. They didn’t know what to do with her. So she was referred to me. I just spoken to on the phone and I’ll be seeing her. But I think that is primary lymphedema with the lymphatic system. There’s something wrong. It’s not functioning as it should be, and as sprained ankle usually can trigger this, and especially that she’s ruled out all these other things.

00:08:38:14 – 00:08:45:12
Speaker 1
That’s probably what it is. So I’ll be working with her with manual lymph drainage and compression.

00:08:45:14 – 00:08:46:03
Speaker 2
Well okay.

00:08:46:03 – 00:08:54:16
Speaker 1
So that’s one thing that just happened today. But typically people will come in. They might have swollen glands over here.

00:08:54:18 – 00:08:55:16
Speaker 2
In their neck.

00:08:55:18 – 00:09:18:05
Speaker 1
In their neck. So they could have had recurring sore throats. They could be not sleeping really well. Sometimes they bloated in their stomach. It can be many things. Other times it’s just unexplained swelling. So what I love to do with all my years of clinical experience, I like to be like a detective and see, like you guys do.

00:09:18:05 – 00:09:34:18
Speaker 1
What’s going on? What is the family history? How are you doing? What are you eating? How are you sleeping? And then put the whole thing together. And then I work out a program for them, which always includes manual loan. Strain it to work on this very precious system.

00:09:34:20 – 00:09:40:03
Speaker 2
Can you describe what a manual lymph drainage session in your office would look like?

00:09:40:05 – 00:10:03:15
Speaker 1
Absolutely. So it’s very relaxing. Some people are very afraid because they might have had deep work done at a chiropractor’s office, but this is very gentle. We first opened up this area here above the clavicle because the entire lymph system drains to here, the head drains to here the arms, there’s a whole pathway. So I always start off there.

00:10:03:20 – 00:10:24:06
Speaker 1
Then I’ll do some deep breathing. Because when you do deep breathing, not only are you calming your nervous system and your vagus nerve, but you are helping the over here we had a sister in a Kylie in the gut, and that is where it’s a plexus, where all the lymphatics from the internal organs and the legs will drain to.

00:10:24:07 – 00:11:01:10
Speaker 1
So by deep breathing, we pushing down the diaphragm and we helping to pump lymph. So we start off with breathing and then they very relaxed. And then I will do. It’s a very light rhythmical pumping movement. It’s not just light as in a feather. There is a pumping movement until we moving the fluids. If a person has had breast cancer, as you mentioned, and lymph nodes removed, and this swelling, we will redirect the fluids to the other side, to the contralateral side or down to the groin area to move the fluids away.

00:11:01:12 – 00:11:25:07
Speaker 1
And it’s so calming and it boost the immune system. It helps to remove wastes and edema. It actually calms the nervous system, said calms sympathetic activity and brings up parasympathetic activity, which we need. And actually the one of the opening movements that we do on the neck is right at the vagus nerve. So immediately somebody very, very relaxed.

00:11:25:09 – 00:11:47:18
Speaker 1
So that’s typical. And they will do the whole body or we’ll do a particular area depending on what’s going on with that client. And a lot of times I will do the whole body and we’ll do a general detoxification and then I love to blend essential oils and incorporate that. And I’ll make oils specifically for the person on my table.

00:11:47:18 – 00:11:50:23
Speaker 1
What they are needing at that time.

00:11:51:01 – 00:12:12:19
Speaker 2
That it sounds highly personalized and also amazing. Where do I sign up? I’m curious about self-care practices for folks who are listening and either not able to watch, or who are maybe not in San Diego and can’t take advantage of the in-person services. One how do we find people? Like, is there a catalog of people who are trained to do this?

00:12:12:21 – 00:12:24:15
Speaker 2
And two, are there things that people can do at home, like dry skin brushing or movement or hydration? Or what do you recommend in terms of limp support without a provider’s support?

00:12:24:17 – 00:12:46:06
Speaker 1
Dry brushing is fantastic, but we go in the direction of limp flow. So in the arm we would go up here and we would go underneath the arm. From there, we would go up to the groin, the tummy. We go in the direction of the colon which is up, around and down the left side. And then we brush up here.

00:12:46:10 – 00:12:57:05
Speaker 1
So dry brushing is fantastic. And I can supply a chart that there’s lots online of people showing how to do proper dry brushing with the lymphatic system.

00:12:57:09 – 00:13:14:06
Speaker 2
There’s one that I’m just going to turn everybody on to. The one that I refer patients to is called Green Smoothie Girl. She has a great video of doing this. She’s in a bikini in front of the fireplace. And, it because she’s in a bikini, you can really see, I think what she’s doing and the direction she’s going.

00:13:14:06 – 00:13:22:02
Speaker 2
And you would typically want to do this naked, right? I typically recommend people do it right before they get in the shower or, what do you. Yeah, that is correct.

00:13:22:04 – 00:13:47:23
Speaker 1
You also can use essential oils. I started with the spiritual phyto essences with Doctor Bruce Borkowski, and he has a system called Vital Key, where you actually we put on about ten different essential oils as a blend and then do your dry brushing. So typically we do not put essential oils on neat right. But we always dilute them in a carrier oil or like coconut oil.

00:13:48:02 – 00:13:57:09
Speaker 1
But there are many ways to do the dry brushing. And I recommend doing deep breathing first and opening up this area.

00:13:57:11 – 00:13:58:11
Speaker 2
The collarbones.

00:13:58:11 – 00:14:20:14
Speaker 1
And overcoat. Yeah, the collarbone and then doing the dry brushing. So that’s one thing I love whole body vibration. It’s really helps with the lymphatics. So also as the studies are coming out now for bone health, which we need as we get older. Not you but me. So that’s really good. I do love the trampoline, the little mini trampoline.

00:14:20:16 – 00:14:34:17
Speaker 1
And get a good one, you know, with good songs in them, strings in them. And that can be really good for the lymphatic system as well. So, what else? Breathing. Deep breathing. Oh my goodness. Absolutely. Are there so.

00:14:34:17 – 00:14:54:13
Speaker 2
Particular types of deep breathing. You know. And there’s the triangle breath and the square breath and the, you know the holding at the top versus holding at the bottom, breathing through your nose brain through your mouth. Is there a particular way to, yeah, to help the lymphatics or, and to really move the diaphragm because you mentioned there’s a lot of lymphatic tissue in the gut.

00:14:54:13 – 00:15:01:00
Speaker 2
So pushing the diaphragm down is our goal there. Of course we want the parasympathetic benefit. But how do you guide people.

00:15:01:01 – 00:15:22:17
Speaker 1
So I studied with doctor but not Jensen in the 80s. He was my hero. He was amazing. And so he taught us something that I’ve always done. And it turns out it’s really good for the lymph system. So as you’re marching and you breathing in, you breathe in for four, you hold for five, and you breathe out for six.

00:15:22:23 – 00:15:46:23
Speaker 1
So that’s really good. And then you can either move your hands or move your tummy. I like to do diaphragmatic breathing for the lymphatics. Sabri. Then push your tummy out. Breathe out. The balloon goes down. So those are good. Of course. There’s the box breathing with four, four, four. There’s so many breathing. But diaphragmatic breathing is what we want to concentrate on for the lymphatic system.

00:15:47:01 – 00:15:50:21
Speaker 1
And when you move, when you’re walking is a perfect time to do all that.

00:15:50:21 – 00:15:58:22
Speaker 2
Great. Okay. And getting the movement. Now how much of a role does hydration play, how much water we drink? Does that play a role in our lymphatics?

00:15:59:03 – 00:16:29:16
Speaker 1
Well it does. It also plays a plays a role in the fascia. And the fascia is this interconnected network all over the body that covers every nerve ending, every muscle, every organ and every lymphatic. And it turns out that when the fascia is dry and tight, the lymphatics don’t flow properly. So that’s why I started studying the Fascia Temple years ago, because I realized that this has such a role, you know, with the lymphatics.

00:16:29:21 – 00:16:45:20
Speaker 1
So then you can do foam rolling and a massage gun, gua sha, all these things to help the fascia to get unrestricted, which then will help the lymph to flow. Everything in our body is so connected. That’s what’s so exciting.

00:16:45:22 – 00:17:10:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. I usually tell patients, if you’ve ever cut a piece of meat or fish and you see there’s this white, thin white layer that surrounds muscle, all animals have that. Everybody with muscle has that. And that’s the fascia. So we have that between our muscles connecting our muscles to our tendons and our bones. And it can also be very, involved in scar tissue buildup.

00:17:10:22 – 00:17:38:05
Speaker 2
And you can kind of tug on the fascia from different directions depending on injuries. And this can throw things off beyond just where we had the injury. Right. This might be happening in our shoulder, but we actually feel it in our knee or our foot. So these connections are really excited. I’m delighted. And then and here that you are connecting these dots, I mean this you have been a lifelong learner and you are always sort of upgrading and iterating so that you can better serve patients.

00:17:38:05 – 00:18:02:10
Speaker 2
And it’s very inspiring. I’m curious, you work with a lot of women in particular, and I’m curious about sort of like the conditions that uniquely affect women, especially as they go through perimenopause and menopause. And things shift with fluid retention and inflammation. And how does the lymphatic system change it? Can we support it in particular ways as we’re going through these hormonal changes?

00:18:02:12 – 00:18:26:04
Speaker 1
I want to just say one more thing about the fashion, because it’s something yes, a new study. They were 2025 that you found lymphatics in the superficial fascia called a sticker. So I’ll be seeing all these guys at the fashion conference in three weeks in New Orleans. That is the most exciting thing. So these lymphatics are every way and my talk will be connecting everything.

00:18:26:06 – 00:18:27:10
Speaker 2
So the paving. Yeah.

00:18:27:10 – 00:18:55:10
Speaker 1
And because the superficial texture, we used to think what didn’t do anything but turns out that they’re more nerve endings in there than any way. There’s 250 million nerve receptors in the fascia and 100 in the skin. Now, whenever it’s finally innervated, I know it’s so exciting. So in terms of women as they’re going through menopause, and I have many, many patients right now that I’m working with who have lipid DMA.

00:18:55:12 – 00:19:20:22
Speaker 1
And I actually going into menopause and lipid dimer is driven by estrogen. And then the what do they do. Do they take hormone replacement. Do they take supplements. What do they do and how will it impact them. So we know that there’s bloating lack of sleep duration. So all of these I can help woman. Or you can be helped with aromatherapy oils to help with the depression and the sleep.

00:19:21:00 – 00:19:43:15
Speaker 1
Again deep breathing, dry brushing, lymphatic drainage to help calm everything and essential oils are just fantastic. And then the manual lymph drainage. And I’ll can give you a website where people can look up good therapists. The manual lymph drainage will help with all of that because it helps with the bloating. It helps with the swelling that comes during these times.

00:19:43:17 – 00:19:56:06
Speaker 1
And I particularly love aromatherapy for that time. And of course, it goes without saying your diet has to be good. You have to be cutting out the sugar, the white carbs.

00:19:56:08 – 00:20:13:10
Speaker 2
So the aromatherapy is a deep passion of yours. Can you describe how you use it? And if somebody needs to work with a provider to really understand that, or is there a way to kind of pick them off the shelf or look for different blends? How do you help people navigate getting the benefits of aromatherapy?

00:20:13:12 – 00:20:35:05
Speaker 1
Well, there are many people selling oils who are not aroma therapists and don’t know what they doing. Yeah, I am a clinical aroma therapist and there are many people like me. We have. I belong to the Aromatherapy International associate ocean, and there’s the air. And I’m on the research committee for that. And Naha, which is the national aromatherapy holistic.

00:20:35:09 – 00:20:43:21
Speaker 1
So they are providers listed on those. You want to go to somebody who is well trained and who understands. So that’s one thing.

00:20:43:23 – 00:21:02:19
Speaker 2
You know, can you go into the store and pick different things based on the way that they smell or go online and kind of get a sense of, oh, this is going to help with memory or that’s going to help with mood, or is it more individualized and more, really, do you recommend working with a provider before you go in and do that?

00:21:02:21 – 00:21:31:09
Speaker 1
So if you’re just wanting just general aromatherapy, sure, you can go into the store. And I taught for 25 years. Hopefully I’ll start up again. But I would teach my students, now you’re smelling really good oils. I want you to go everywhere, go into the stores and identify five which are not good oils. For example, lavender. We get high altitude lavender, which is very, very high in Vienna lore, which is much more calming.

00:21:31:11 – 00:21:58:06
Speaker 1
You have spike lavender, which has camphor in it, which you would not to use on a child or an elderly person, and you would not use it for sleep. So if you wanted to really do proper therapeutic work, I do recommend seeing a practitioner who has a deep understanding of essential oils and consultations skills. But if you’re just wanting to relax, yes, you can get a relaxing blend that that answer that properly.

00:21:58:08 – 00:22:20:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, when I was in school and we were learning in herbalism and about aromatherapy and the benefits, these are phenomenal tools. And I think throughout my career I’ve been a little concerned with how how many people are selling these through MLMs, through multi-level marketing, because part of what we learned was that they’re volatile, so they’re highly flammable and they’re highly potent.

00:22:20:11 – 00:22:51:17
Speaker 2
So something like putting peppermint oil into, say, a bathtub can cause numbness, can cause neurotoxicity. And so there is there powerful tools. And I would agree that you want to work with a well trained provider and that often what you’re getting, if they’re not powerful, if they’re not dangerous, then you’re probably getting a very overpriced diluted product and you should just spend the money going to see a good quality provider who’s going to get you those top quality herbs and essential oils.

00:22:51:19 – 00:22:53:17
Speaker 2
So I think we’re in agreement there.

00:22:53:18 – 00:23:21:00
Speaker 1
And also know what to avoid for safety. I’m on the research committee, for the EIA, we are just revising our safety standards for our members and for the public, and it’s extensive. We went into so much detail because of everything going out. One of my colleagues has a website showing pictures of toxicity and burns that of people have done through improper use.

00:23:21:02 – 00:23:26:16
Speaker 1
So use properly. They’re beautiful, they’re wonderful, but they are very powerful.

00:23:26:18 – 00:23:37:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. So then moving on to your personal experience, I just I don’t do you mind telling everyone how old you are? You don’t have to.

00:23:37:07 – 00:23:51:02
Speaker 1
I’m very proud. I just had a birthday summer solstice. Very powerful day. And I just turned 76, 76 years young, moving to 80 and 90. And my goal is to live to be not my goal. I’m going to live to be 100. I told you that already.

00:23:51:03 – 00:24:16:08
Speaker 2
I’m I am I am very much aligned with that because we need you around. You are again, like this, a bright, shining example of what it means to age. Well, you are 76 years young and have more energy and stamina than most people my own age and my early 40s. I am just in awe of how you speak at conferences internationally.

00:24:16:08 – 00:24:28:23
Speaker 2
I mean, you are constantly preparing for a talk. You work all day, you run a clinic. How do you do it? All the rest of us can’t keep up with you. Where do you get all of your energy and vitality from, and how do you sustain it?

00:24:29:01 – 00:24:50:12
Speaker 1
Well, you know, I think that a lot of it is passion. You know, I do run my life with passion and purpose. I love, love, love what I’m doing. And I think that I’ve always been able to be in the moment of what’s happening, even if there’s 500 things going on. Oh my. I can just stay in that moment, compartmentalize and just be there.

00:24:50:14 – 00:25:17:21
Speaker 1
And then as we start learning, you know, how to be, to be mindful, to be quiet, to be in the moment. That is very important to do as well. So I so love what I’m doing. And I had told you because I’m patient. Doctor Sanderson very proud that my sleep cycle, I’m now concentrating on my sleep because I used to tell you that I’m up till two, three, four in the morning and it’s say no, I require my finger.

00:25:17:23 – 00:25:39:18
Speaker 1
And so I finally decided, well, I’m going to be 100. I need to get heart rate variability up. The best way is to sleep. So deep breathing before I go to sleep. Calming down. I could go on. Last night I stopped at midnight because I’m preparing my talk. I could have gone on till two three in the morning because I’m so engrossed.

00:25:39:20 – 00:26:04:20
Speaker 1
I think when you have a passion, when you find something that you really love that excites you cannot working. And then you have a passion. And I have a beautiful family. I have wonderful children and in laws, son in law and my daughter in law’s and my grand daughter I have. So that sustains me and fills me. And I spend a lot of time with them as well, and lifelong friends and exercise.

00:26:04:22 – 00:26:27:08
Speaker 1
You ask me how I sustain every day I exercise, but I’m not 60. Recall. We walk every single day and then four times a week I go on the elliptical and two days a week I do polarities. That’s non-negotiable. Those times are there. And this I’m out of town, so I think altogether. And then truly aromatherapy. It just helps.

00:26:27:08 – 00:26:33:08
Speaker 1
There’s an oil for everything and there’s a blend for everything. So.

00:26:33:10 – 00:26:39:20
Speaker 2
I love it. And what about manual lymphatic therapy. Do you receive?

00:26:39:22 – 00:27:08:12
Speaker 1
I don’t receive as often as I should because I’m so busy. And the other gal who works with me in the office, who does men now got two of them actually. They also so booked, but I do do dry brushing. I do some form of lymph massage, especially when I travel. I always wear compression and when I get to my destination, I do self-massage always because lip edema is a connective tissue disease and one of the problems is inflammation and swelling.

00:27:08:13 – 00:27:32:12
Speaker 1
So I do work very hard at keeping my gut and my gut microbiome in good shape, which also going to help the brain and help with that inflammation. That’s a key goal to keep that inflammation at bay. And as you know, I mean that inflammation can extend to the brain. And then there’s neuroinflammation. So it works for everything.

00:27:32:14 – 00:27:51:16
Speaker 1
And then the brain if you detoxing you sleeping enough. And that clear lymphatic system and the meningeal and fat are draining and detoxifying at night. That’s also going to keep your brain active and keep you excited to do everything. So sometimes I massage my head before I go to sleep.

00:27:51:18 – 00:28:15:07
Speaker 2
Nice. So you mentioned having lip edema. This is part of your personal health journey. Lipid as in fat. Lipid lip edema is different from lymphedema. I limp et so tell us how do these connect and what were those symptoms that you realized you had that moment. This is lip edema. So kind of break those down for us.

00:28:15:07 – 00:28:20:04
Speaker 2
Tell us the differences and how someone might know if this was affecting them.

00:28:20:06 – 00:28:43:15
Speaker 1
So when a person and and when I this happened to me, nobody knew what it was. And still today my patients go they don’t know. They told they fat. They need to exercise more. They need to stop eating. I cry with my patients sometimes when I hear what is told to them. And finally, after ten years, 20 and 30 years, they’ve discovered actually, thanks a lot to social media.

00:28:43:17 – 00:29:02:16
Speaker 1
So what it is, is an inability to lose weight in spite of doing everything. Often the top part of the body will be smaller than the bottom and they can be bulges. They can even be a cuff on the arms or a cuff on the leg. The feet are not involved. This is lip edema and there is pain.

00:29:02:18 – 00:29:25:16
Speaker 1
Sometimes the pain is just upon palpation. When somebody presses you or the dog jumps on your legs and the beard, or it can be pain all over. In later stages there is a lot of pain and there could be nodules. So, it’s very different from lymphedema because it’s bilateral. It’s both sides and it doesn’t affect the hands and the feet.

00:29:25:18 – 00:29:29:17
Speaker 1
So it’s called as loose connective tissue disease.

00:29:29:19 – 00:29:47:19
Speaker 2
I would imagine with the pain many people are misdiagnosed with say fibromyalgia or there are other explanations. But like you said, it’s lifestyle and there’s sort of some shame associated with it because people are told, oh, it’s because you’re not eating right or exercising enough, when in fact that’s not the case at all.

00:29:47:21 – 00:30:18:16
Speaker 1
Although sometimes it’s true because you can have l’épidémie with obesity and stage one lip edema. It’s a progressive disease. But because everything that I’ve done, it did not progress. So it’s a progressive disease. And there can be lip edema with obesity. So I don’t have that obesity component. I just have the lip edema. So once the lip obesity fat can be lost through different measures, that’s not the whole story.

00:30:18:18 – 00:30:39:20
Speaker 1
That can happen. And then the lip edema is there. But many of them really are on like six 700 calories a day. And they don’t know what to do. And the doctors shame them. I had a young woman who’s from Chicago who came to see me. She was a work schedule here and came to see me because she’d been referred to me and she just was crying.

00:30:39:20 – 00:30:47:23
Speaker 1
And she said, I just I feel so relieved because for the first time in my 35 years, I know it’s not my fault.

00:30:48:01 – 00:30:55:18
Speaker 2
How heartbreaking. So are there tests that someone might ask their doctor for to understand if this might be affecting them?

00:30:55:20 – 00:31:16:14
Speaker 1
So right now there are no tests. There are some doctors who are now working with ultrasound, and it’s very interesting. You can see my colleague Emily, I, she calls a dancing fish. So when you look in the ultrasound it kind of goes like this. And you can see the nodules. It’s very interesting. And the lymphedema looks very different.

00:31:16:16 – 00:31:38:07
Speaker 1
But there really are no tests because the other tests don’t really show it. So we look at inflammatory markers, we look at homocysteine, we look at CRP, C-reactive protein, sometimes sediment. Right. So we look at those markers to see. And then I have a checklist of symptoms. Do you bruise easily. Do you have flat feet. Do you pro pronate go through this whole thing?

00:31:38:07 – 00:31:52:23
Speaker 1
Are you hypermobile. Have you had knee surgery or your knees sore? Have you constantly been moving joints out of. So we’ve put that all together. And then do you have anyone in your family who has heavy legs?

00:31:53:00 – 00:31:53:16
Speaker 2
Oh it.

00:31:53:16 – 00:31:56:05
Speaker 1
Is, yes.

00:31:56:07 – 00:32:12:08
Speaker 2
Fascinating. So there are other types of connective tissue disorders as well. These hypermobility syndromes. How is this one different through this questionnaire, through this kind of clinical diagnostic process. Can you tell if they have something else going on.

00:32:12:10 – 00:32:33:23
Speaker 1
So less dense loss is a another connective tissue that hypermobility less dense loss. So I am not a doctor. So I don’t diagnose even though I know a lot more than most of the doctors around with that. So I have people that I refer to. But we go through the checklist and then I’ll say, you have met all these criteria.

00:32:33:23 – 00:32:55:05
Speaker 1
This is what you feeling? I want you to read this, and then I’ll refer them to certain practitioners. We don’t have a lot of them, but they really are. And then the other stands loss. You know, there’s the beacon test where you can test to see for hypermobility. And there’s a whole criteria for that. But mainly most of the lip edema patients have Ehlers-Danlos.

00:32:55:06 – 00:32:55:17
Speaker 1
And then.

00:32:55:20 – 00:32:56:22
Speaker 2
In addition.

00:32:57:00 – 00:33:19:07
Speaker 1
Yes. And then there’s Durkheim’s disease, which is another connective tissue disease. I’m very involved. We have a panel coming up next week there. The pain is just excruciating. And they often have lip edema as well. So it’s pretty complex. But we can help people. That’s the tool, the tools to do that they can do at home, things that they can do.

00:33:19:07 – 00:33:50:15
Speaker 1
And sometimes they surgery and then I will help prepare people for surgery and then we help them after the surgery. Like you, a doctor, Sanders and I believe in an integrative approach. First you do everything anti-inflammatory, working with your diet, doing all the conservative measures, and then if you need surgery, you go ahead, but you’ve got too much healthier system going in for the surgeries, trying to teach all the doctors that as well.

00:33:50:17 – 00:34:15:11
Speaker 2
And it’s an uphill battle. Some days have worked with clients at all stages of life. You mentioned a 35 year old recently coming from Chicago, and I know you’ve you’ve had this decades long career, so you’ve seen people age physically, emotionally, spiritually. What are the differences and the people who are aging well versus those who aren’t? Like, do you have any patients who inspire you and how you are aging?

00:34:15:13 – 00:34:36:02
Speaker 1
I love your questions. It’s just so wonderful. Well, really, the sad thing is that I see people coming in who’s just five years younger than I am, or maybe two years older, and they look and feel 16 years older, and it’s just hard, hard to imagine. So yeah, I guess I’m the inspiration for, you know, a lot of them.

00:34:36:02 – 00:35:00:05
Speaker 1
And I had somebody yesterday say, well, thank you. I’m so motivated now. I feel so motivated. I know I can do this. So I think, you know, we work off of each other, but it’s exercise. I mean the crucial thing is to we don’t move everything. Just inflammation is worse. The fascia tightens up your brain doesn’t work. So that to me is just key.

00:35:00:07 – 00:35:23:10
Speaker 1
The exercise, the good nutrition and then being outside and being in the sunlight. All of the things that you teach your patients and hope that everybody would be doing that really contributes to a happy, healthy, long life. And I’m on no medications at all. So if it doesn’t have to be that way, we don’t have to, right?

00:35:23:16 – 00:35:37:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Know that there’s a choice. There’s a lot of choice in how we age. Weight does aging well mean to you personally? You’re going to live to be 100. Describe a day in the life of Linda and Connie who is 100 years old.

00:35:37:04 – 00:35:46:12
Speaker 1
But you know what? It’s funny. I just can’t believe this because when I tell this is the crazy thing, I tell people I’m going to live to be 100. And they all say, yeah, we know that. Yeah.

00:35:46:13 – 00:35:47:10
Speaker 2
Like, okay.

00:35:47:13 – 00:36:16:20
Speaker 1
What a what a nerve. I’ve kind. Yeah, but my mother lived to be almost 100 and she was just an inspiration. She passed away just over a year ago. So. So she exercise until she was about 88. And then it was a bit too far walking to the exercise class from her car. And then when she turned 90, there was Covid, you know, not 95, maybe, but my goal is that I’m going to be vibrant and vital.

00:36:16:22 – 00:36:39:13
Speaker 1
I saw somebody walking today and I was looking at this man and he was all bent over and his face was so beautiful and he was bent over and he had a walker. And I thought you was somebody’s father, you was somebody’s grandfather. You were somebody really important in the world before. And I just decided we need to have even more respect for older people.

00:36:39:15 – 00:37:04:12
Speaker 1
And so my vision going forward is to still have the same vitality and vibrance, but accept some of the changes, because it’s not possible for everybody to be vibrant and vital. Although Bernard Jensen, I keep him up. He would stand up and he’d go like this I here feel wonderful. How do you all steal? And we’d all go, wonderful!

00:37:04:12 – 00:37:18:19
Speaker 1
And he’d say, louder, louder. So he was the person that I really looked up to to aspire. I think he was 94 when he passed away. I’m not sure exactly, but he did have prostate cancer that eventually got him home.

00:37:18:22 – 00:37:34:05
Speaker 2
That’s rough. If people were to do just one thing, one piece of advice for people who want to feel more vibrant, who want to feel more passion as they age, feel more alive, what would you tell them to do?

00:37:34:07 – 00:37:55:04
Speaker 1
Find something that you love to do. If you are retired. Find something you love because don’t just retire and do nothing. If you are not retired and you don’t love what you doing and you can’t change it, find another passion, a goal, a meaning to have meaning in your life. Why you are here? Why are we on this earth?

00:37:55:09 – 00:38:19:17
Speaker 1
We’re here to serve and help other people. So that would be after the, you know, of course, the exercise and the died. But purpose and passion. And my mother, my mother used to read she read the economist, the entire economist every week, including the week before she died. She called up all of her friends, all of the neighbors, everybody.

00:38:19:17 – 00:38:31:02
Speaker 1
Those three days before she died. I heard her on the phone and text message remind you to thank them for everything and each one was a different message. And to say goodbye because she’s dying.

00:38:31:04 – 00:38:32:09
Speaker 2
Oh, so she knew.

00:38:32:11 – 00:38:46:03
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Yeah, she was totally connected. She had this huge community. So I think that’s another big thing is to don’t be isolated. You know, if you don’t have a big family or you don’t get on with your family, create a community.

00:38:46:05 – 00:39:04:01
Speaker 2
You know, then thank you for mentioning that, because I think a theme and what you’re describing both creating meaning and purpose and community, these things are hard. They take effort. Right. And and so I think for some people, it’s almost easier to say, now I’m just going to tap out. I’m not going to be involved with my family or I’m not going to volunteer.

00:39:04:01 – 00:39:27:13
Speaker 2
I’m not going to do this because it requires effort. But do you think that maybe it’s that effort, it’s that follow through. It’s getting through the hard things that actually makes it valuable. How do you how do you balance those things? I mean, here I’m talking to someone who you stay up and are passionate, but you I mean, I put together talks for medical conferences and man work, and you do this all the time.

00:39:27:13 – 00:39:41:05
Speaker 2
You love it, you thrive on it. But talk about that balance. Like when is it work where it becomes so stressful and it prevents you from sleeping versus its meaning and its purpose and its passion? Where’s the line?

00:39:41:07 – 00:40:08:12
Speaker 1
Well, I guess there is a line. I mean, I have found now that when I’m 76, but I can see 8 or 9 patients in a day, and I would come home and I wouldn’t be tired. But now, the last year or two, I am tired at the end of the day. So now what I’m doing is and I love cooking, so I’ll cook, will eat good food, and then I’m not working again after supper.

00:40:08:14 – 00:40:23:02
Speaker 1
To have that balance because otherwise I could tip it out. But the days of my staying up awake thinking oh God, I’ve got to do this are good. They gone because I’m so at peace with everything and it’s so organized. And no I don’t have that.

00:40:23:04 – 00:40:33:04
Speaker 2
How did you get there. How are you at peace with everything. Was it a mindset shift? Was it oh, or did you just check all the boxes and you got organized and one day you’re like, all right, it’s a done.

00:40:33:06 – 00:40:52:14
Speaker 1
Well, I used to wake up at night. Oh my gosh, I need to do this. And then I get up and take an aromatherapy bath and then make a list and go back to sleep. I don’t have to do that anymore. But my father was my inspiration. He was 87 when he passed away and when he was dying to give a message to everybody but to me, he said, Linda.

00:40:52:14 – 00:41:09:13
Speaker 1
And he actually called me Linda la Linda. And just remember, you can do anything. Don’t let anybody ever stop you. You carry on the way you are because you know what to do. I mean, how can you go wrong with that from your father?

00:41:09:15 – 00:41:15:02
Speaker 2
Wow. That is a powerful message. And do you feel like you got that message from him while you were growing up?

00:41:15:02 – 00:41:27:04
Speaker 1
Was that part of your routine? Oh, my dad was full of passion. Purpose? Doing charity, doing things, playing tennis, doing lots of things. I was blessed, I was very blessed to have amazing parents.

00:41:27:10 – 00:41:36:18
Speaker 2
So this was a model for you. But also it was ingrained in you that you have capacity. You have you can go do what you want to do.

00:41:36:20 – 00:41:44:12
Speaker 1
How you that’s it. I always don’t you say you just got to know what you want and then you go out and you do it. That’s it.

00:41:44:14 – 00:42:06:01
Speaker 2
That clarity helps I’d imagine in your role as a healer a part of that is almost re parenting people who weren’t as blessed to have such incredible parents, right, of reminding them, kind of saying what your dad said to you, to the people who show up in your office, reminding them that you can do what you whatever you want, it makes take some work, but don’t let anybody stop you.

00:42:06:03 – 00:42:11:09
Speaker 2
And to hear those words, to hear that validation and that encouragement is really powerful.

00:42:11:13 – 00:42:35:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I just love what I do because it really is integrative. It’s body, mind and spirit. And my medium is manual on strange and aromatherapy. But as you know, it’s just being there. It’s being present for somebody. It’s holding space for them. It’s holding. Being calm. Being in your presence just makes them feel calm and comforted and heard and even left.

00:42:35:19 – 00:42:38:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. And that’s all we need.

00:42:39:01 – 00:42:45:06
Speaker 2
Humans do. Yeah. Community and love nurturing. And it’s incredible what a gift you provide.

00:42:45:08 – 00:43:05:17
Speaker 1
And then thinking of the lymph system I mean that’s the flow right? It’s the ebb and flow in your body. And that’s what we want and the fascia to keep it flowing. So that’s part of everything. And I, I just can’t believe I was just drawn to this lymphatic work not even knowing what I had, what disease I had.

00:43:05:18 – 00:43:18:13
Speaker 2
So kismet. How amazing. You exude joy. But I ask everyone, what gives you the most joy at this stage of life and has had shifted as you’ve gained wisdom and experience?

00:43:18:15 – 00:43:40:00
Speaker 1
Yes, it has shifted. It really has. I used to love to travel and cruise and do things. Now I just can smell of Rose and I feel so happy or certain. I’ve got the most beautiful garden with a waterfall and fountains, and I wasn’t sitting at any love because I was just when I wasn’t working with clients and I was doing stuff on the computer.

00:43:40:01 – 00:44:03:13
Speaker 1
So now it just being there, being peaceful with my dog next to me, listening to the waterfall. And again, that’s the wisdom, thank God that I’ve got. As I’ve got older, I’m working at being quiet sometimes and being mindful and being still, and then just being grateful and finding joy. And that’s what I tell my clients every day.

00:44:03:14 – 00:44:07:19
Speaker 1
Do one thing that brings you joy, one thing.

00:44:07:21 – 00:44:12:16
Speaker 2
What brings you joy day to day?

00:44:12:18 – 00:44:28:05
Speaker 1
You know, I don’t know, I just well, when I wake up and there’s my husband and we’re married 55 years, and we still love each other very, very much. It’s great. I’m happy. I’m just I’m. I’m grateful. Very, very blessed. Yeah.

00:44:28:07 – 00:44:28:21
Speaker 2
All right, so.

00:44:28:21 – 00:44:32:09
Speaker 1
Now we work hard at everything and nothing comes easily.

00:44:32:11 – 00:44:41:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, but that’s my next question. You’ve been married for 55 years and you were happily married. You wake up every day blessed to be next, to wake up next to your husband.

00:44:41:08 – 00:44:42:13
Speaker 1
Always that way.

00:44:42:15 – 00:44:45:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, what was the secret to that? How did you.

00:44:45:12 – 00:45:06:14
Speaker 1
Was that way? We got divorced after we’d been married 19 years. We’d been in this country for nine years. And the immigration was very, very difficult. And then we remarried on our 20th wedding anniversary in Sedona at Red Rock crossing. And then we retook our vows again in March of this year in Sedona.

00:45:06:16 – 00:45:07:19
Speaker 2
Wow.

00:45:07:21 – 00:45:23:04
Speaker 1
So yeah, we just rekindled, you know, you go through many passages and things are worth working for, and then you work at them, but nothing’s just wonderful and roses all the time, you know, I mean, our immigration was very difficult.

00:45:23:06 – 00:45:40:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Was there any key work that you did and the relationship was there a teacher or a book or a therapy practice or a conversation? Was there something that helped you turn the corner and and make the relationship more joyful?

00:45:40:17 – 00:46:02:19
Speaker 1
I don’t know, I think it’s for me anyway. I think it’s just getting to know yourself more and being at peace and and acceptance. I’ve just said that when we redid our vows. But just acceptance, you know, none of us are perfect and it’s okay. I have books everywhere. I drive my husband crazy. He leaves the doors open.

00:46:02:21 – 00:46:09:23
Speaker 1
It doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t matter. It’s just acceptance. I think that’s right.

00:46:10:01 – 00:46:31:15
Speaker 2
Yes. Respect. Trust, respect, acceptance I like I love it, I love it. What insights? What powerful, inspiring insights, Linda. And what else do you want to share with our listeners? I want to make sure that they know how to find you. If, they want to either schedule in your clinic or they want to know about your your speaking tour, where you’re going to be speaking next.

00:46:31:21 – 00:46:44:22
Speaker 2
I want to make sure that people can find out more about you personally and professionally. So definitely that. But also, is there any other tidbit of wisdom you have so much to share? And I want to make sure that we cover all of the highlights.

00:46:45:00 – 00:46:54:15
Speaker 1
Well, I know that you worked with cognitive Decline, and the reason that I came to you initially was because I’m in love to be 100, and I didn’t want to have cognitive decline.

00:46:54:20 – 00:46:59:01
Speaker 2
It’s such a luxury to work on prevention, especially with someone as vital as you are.

00:46:59:06 – 00:47:25:16
Speaker 1
Right? So I just wanted to remind everybody that the brain has a lymphatic system, too. That’s what we’ve been talking about. The glia lymphatic system, the meningeal lymphatic system, and poor lymphatic clearance from the brain is like garbage in the brain. So everything you know, the good sleep being calm, the good food nourishing your food. Not to forget that because that’s all tied in with cognitive decline.

00:47:25:18 – 00:47:51:10
Speaker 1
And even for some Lyme disease, there comes a lot of the patients that I work with. And I know you work with Lyme. There’s there’s brain dysfunction, you know, and brain fog. So all of that becomes important. So please remember that. And sleep and getting that deep sleep and that REM sleep is so important. And I’m so glad that I’ve finally started concentrating on that meat.

00:47:51:10 – 00:47:53:17
Speaker 1
You.

00:47:53:19 – 00:48:11:15
Speaker 2
Me too. Well, thank you for that reminder. Also, good sleep is crucial to brain health. And the reason one of the big reasons why not? The only reason why, but one of the biggest reasons why is because of that lymphatic system is because of the drainage of toxins from the brain at night when we’re in that deep sleep.

00:48:11:15 – 00:48:32:08
Speaker 2
So thank you so much for highlighting that again. If you learn nothing else from me as a brain doc, it’s how important good, high quality sleep is. So thank you, thank you, thank you for, validating me on that, reminding everyone how important that is. Now tell us where we can learn more about you.

00:48:32:10 – 00:49:00:20
Speaker 1
So on my Instagram page, it’s at London Con and then I have its beauty clinic, Aromatherapy Day Spa and its beauty. And it’s Clinique. It’s clean. I know I e k beauty. Clinique.com is what it is. It’s beauty. Sneak aromatherapy day spa. It’s the African spelling of the word Clinique because I’m from South Africa. And then I also have lymphatic therapy services.com.

00:49:00:22 – 00:49:11:04
Speaker 1
I’m on LinkedIn. I think my LinkedIn page is actually Beauty clinic, but I did give you that link over there. But it’s really all about me. There’s a lot on that over there.

00:49:11:06 – 00:49:41:00
Speaker 2
Great. And it’s Linda and Con Linda a and an e k h n. So Atlanta and Con on Instagram seems like a good place to start. And then also I know from experience, if you put Linda and Con into Google and even add lymphatic to it, you will get lots of information and can go down the rabbit hole on lip edema, lymphedema and all of the supportive therapy is involved, with manual and with static drainage and other thing, aromatherapy in particular.

00:49:41:00 – 00:49:52:21
Speaker 2
So very exciting stuff. I couldn’t thank you enough for sharing your enthusiasm, your joy, your passion and all of the wisdom and experience that you have shared with us today. Thank you.

00:49:52:23 – 00:49:55:01
Speaker 1
Thank you so much.

00:49:55:03 – 00:50:19:22
Speaker 3
Thank you so much for listening to the Think Well, Well podcast. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, please take a moment to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with someone you care about. It’s one of the best ways to help others discover tools and inspiration for aging well. To stay connected, get bonus resources, and never miss an episode.

00:50:20:00 – 00:50:29:18
Speaker 3
Head over to doctor Heather sanderson.com and join my email list. Until next time, keep thinking. Well, an aging on purpose.