THINKWELL

AGEWELL

From Lectins to Longevity: Dr. Gundry’s Guide to Total Gut Health

00:00:00:16 – 00:00:25:26
Speaker 1
If you’d asked me probably 25 years ago, what I thought about leaky gut, I would have said, yeah, it’s pseudoscience, but, you know, thanks to OCO Fasano, who’s now at Harvard, we can measure leaky gut. Intestinal permeability is real. 100% of my patients about immune disease have leaky gut.

00:00:25:28 – 00:00:50:26
Speaker 2
Welcome. In this episode, I get to talk to not just one, but two brilliant minds. Doctor Stephen Gantry is here to join my good friend Robert Love and I for a conversation that dives deep into the gut brain connection. Doctor Gundry is a world renowned bestselling author, cardiothoracic surgeon, and many, many other things. But he recently published the book The Gut Brain Paradox.

00:00:50:29 – 00:01:16:24
Speaker 2
And he’s going to take us on a journey where we explore how our gut microbiome influences everything from brain health to inflammation and even how we eat. Robert Love brings his signature curiosity and clarity to our conversation, making it a rich and practical discussion. I hope that you are curious about how you can improve your cognitive health from the inside out.

00:01:17:02 – 00:01:20:24
Speaker 2
This is a must listen episode. Let’s dive in.

00:01:20:26 – 00:01:28:08
Speaker 3
Doctor country what role do gut bacteria play in things like depression, anxiety, and neurodegenerative diseases?

00:01:28:10 – 00:02:02:07
Speaker 1
Well, I’m awfully depressed to tell you that unfortunately, they have far more than you and I and even Dale Bredesen would have thought a few years ago. And in fact, I just had Dale on my podcast last week, and we were reminiscing about the times when none of us knew much about the microbiome and how, my goodness, how could a little single cell organism have control over this advanced creature like this?

00:02:02:07 – 00:02:36:07
Speaker 1
You know, magnificent. All of us. And yet, as I talked about in my last book, Gut Check, and now in the gut brain paradox, with every literally passing week, a new study comes out that shows just how much influence the microbes on the overall microbiome the gut microbiome has on our brain function and our mood, our depression, our neurodegeneration.

00:02:36:07 – 00:03:02:08
Speaker 1
And as Heather well knows, it’s just it’s mind boggling that these little guys, have so much input, which I guess we should have realized, Hippocrates said 2500 years ago that all disease begins in the gut. I’ve spent 25 years now trying to figure out how he knew that, because it was clear he knew it. But anyhow.

00:03:02:09 – 00:03:03:01
Speaker 1
So.

00:03:03:03 – 00:03:12:21
Speaker 2
Yes, how would we know if we have optimal gut bacteria or if we need to do something about it?

00:03:12:24 – 00:03:49:10
Speaker 1
Well, I think there’s a lot of ways to figure out that we don’t have optimal gut bacteria. And I was I was in medical school back in the dark ages. And in the mid 1970s. And and looking back, it’s remarkable that most of the bad things that happen to destroy a perfectly wonderful tropical rainforest of critters in our gut, literally all got introduced in the mid 1970s.

00:03:49:10 – 00:04:13:00
Speaker 1
And I was there. For instance, broad spectrum antibiotics were were introduced in the mid 1970s, and I can remember how miraculous it was that, you know, we didn’t have to eat culture or try to grow things. And two thirds of the time they didn’t grow. And then we had to test antibiotics against them in a petri dish to see which one would work.

00:04:13:02 – 00:04:45:15
Speaker 1
And now all of a sudden, you know, we had this incredible, you know, AK 47 set on automatic and we just mom all down. And it was just, you know, remarkable. Of course, none of us knew. Actually, I got to tell you the story. I told it on other podcast, but it’s worth telling. During my medical school career, when broad spectrum antibiotics came out, a new disease, a huge inflammation of the colon came about.

00:04:45:18 – 00:05:12:09
Speaker 1
It was called pseudo membranous inner colitis because we actually didn’t know what was causing it. And we now know it’s C difficile. And our head of surgery said, you know, I have a feeling that we’ve done this to ourselves, that these people, we’ve given them antibiotics to treat their pneumonia or whatever, and now they end up with this.

00:05:12:17 – 00:05:38:22
Speaker 1
I think we’ve killed other bacteria. And so he would send medical students to take a crap once a week in what he called the honeypot, literally. And we take it to his lab and we put it in a waring blender. I kid you not. And we’d put it in an enema bag and we’d give these people, this is in the mid 70s, fecal transplants.

00:05:38:23 – 00:06:03:18
Speaker 1
We called them, you know, fecal elements and then surgeons, general surgeons, and at that time were actually in the original gastroenterologist. We did all the scoping, everything. And so we’d look up their rear ends in two days instead of this just awful quagmire of pus. It was pristine and beautiful. And we go, whoa, you know, he was right.

00:06:03:20 – 00:06:34:03
Speaker 1
He was mocked. He couldn’t get anybody to let him give a talk at a scientific meeting because they said, oh, come on, that’s just hogwash. And now, of course, we realize we killed them all off. And C dificil said, thanks, and we’ll take over here. Same thing. Glyphosate was patented by Monsanto in the 1970s as an antibiotic, not as a weed killer.

00:06:34:06 – 00:06:35:11
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.

00:06:35:13 – 00:06:36:08
Speaker 2
Wow.

00:06:36:11 – 00:07:06:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. And it was incredibly, actually effective antibiotic. A little. Did anybody know that it was so effective against all the things. But the convinced the FDA and it was perfectly safe for human use because it targeted the chicken meat pathway and in plants growth pathway in plants. But they didn’t bother to tell anybody, but they knew the targeted, the bacteria, the chicken made pathway.

00:07:06:01 – 00:07:34:28
Speaker 1
And that’s how they had patented it as an antibiotic. So a lo and behold, we’ve got broad spectrum antibiotics. We’ve got glyphosate now in everything. And as a general surgeon we used to operate on ulcers before we do. They got abuse and maybe get to that subject in a second. But when proton pump inhibitors were introduced, when I was in medical school, we went, oh, this is miraculous.

00:07:34:28 – 00:08:08:23
Speaker 1
We now have a way when I operate on anybody. And little did we know that it completely change the gut flora by changing the acid in the gut. Finally, in the 1970s, NSAIDs came out non-steroidal anti-inflammatory, which appeared to be miraculous because aspirin, which is an insert caused gastric ulcers. But Aleve ibuprofen Advil didn’t appear to cause gastric ulcers.

00:08:08:23 – 00:08:20:29
Speaker 1
But the research was so scary that was only allowed as prescription drug, and you could only prescribe it for two weeks because it was so aspirin.

00:08:21:01 – 00:08:21:18
Speaker 3
So aspirin.

00:08:21:19 – 00:08:25:20
Speaker 1
No, this is ibuprofen. Ibuprofen and naproxen.

00:08:25:23 – 00:08:27:12
Speaker 3
Prescription only two weeks.

00:08:27:14 – 00:08:53:17
Speaker 1
Only two weeks. Why? Because. And I’ve, you know, the literature. It didn’t cause ulcers in the stomach, but it caused ulcers in the small intestine. It caused leaky bowel, leaky gut, and they knew it. But it took a while to kick in, like two weeks. Now, of course, you know, it’s the most widely used over-the-counter pain medicine there is.

00:08:53:21 – 00:08:57:11
Speaker 1
We have children’s Advil, you know, so and so.

00:08:57:12 – 00:08:59:18
Speaker 3
We have children’s Adderall right now. Goodness.

00:08:59:18 – 00:09:01:15
Speaker 1
Well, you don’t buy drugs.

00:09:01:15 – 00:09:26:22
Speaker 3
Good God, you said something really fascinating that really hearkens back to history. So this person discovered that fecal transplants really, really good. And it really effective in the 70s. So that’s cutting edge now. Now people are still very reluctant. This hearkens back to Semmelweis who was the one to discover bacteria. And so, you know, the story is women wouldn’t go into the hospital because they would die giving birth.

00:09:26:24 – 00:09:45:26
Speaker 3
And they didn’t know why. The doctors didn’t know why. Turns out the doctors were visiting the morgue and handling corpses, and they’re not washing their hands and then going and delivering babies and then baby and or mother and baby would die or get sick. And so women chose home births. Its use. What he figured out. If you wash your hands, it actually reduces it.

00:09:45:26 – 00:10:01:16
Speaker 3
And he was mocked, humiliated. They try to take away his funding, try to take away his job, and he ended up in an insane asylum. And he was right. He was right. Well ahead of his time and the establishment. The established doctors refused to wash their hands. And, you know, Joseph Lister got credit for it. They listened to him.

00:10:01:16 – 00:10:10:02
Speaker 3
But Semmelweis was the one who figured out sounds like very similar to this person. They figured something out that we’re still not utilizing today. That’s fascinating.

00:10:10:05 – 00:10:36:29
Speaker 1
Yeah, actually, at the dedication in my new book is to the Semmelweis bacteria were not known, they weren’t discovered until about 15 years after his death. And what tipped him off was one of his professors. You’re right. They did autopsies, and then they went and went to a labor and delivery room. One of his professors nicked his finger while doing an autopsy, and he died, sepsis, because there were no antibiotics.

00:10:36:29 – 00:11:00:14
Speaker 1
And he said, oh, that’s funny. And, wow, this guy just got sick by doing this. And we’re walking into the labor and delivery room, and there was a midwife hospital in, Vienna that didn’t have this problem because, of course, the midwives weren’t doing autopsies. And so when he got the job, he says, first thing we’re going to do is we’re not going from the morgue there.

00:11:00:14 – 00:11:22:00
Speaker 1
We’re going to wash our hands. And you’re right, he was repudiated. He was actually exiled to Budapest and then institutionalized. And the worst part is he was beaten to death in the mental institution. Hey. Okay. And 15 years later, bacteria were discovered and he was hailed as the father. And the sepsis.

00:11:22:03 – 00:11:39:06
Speaker 3
Reminds me a little bit of what mainstream media is doing to Robert Kennedy. They’ll say he’s he’s crazy for saying fluoride is bad. And then the same day, the same day the New York Times will run an article saying fluoride in the water is associated with, impaired IQ in children. It’s fascinating that somehow health has been politicized.

00:11:39:09 – 00:12:14:18
Speaker 2
And as well, I think, you know, an Iowa doctor, but they’re talking about how we could delay, prevent and even reverse Alzheimer’s and dementia that he’s been saying that for over ten years. And I think finally, we’re finally getting traction. But he’s another one where really I think noticing common sense. Right. Seeing common sense but uncommon practice talking about it, writing about it, and giving people hope that there’s a way to feel empowered to do something about these chronic conditions as we age.

00:12:14:24 – 00:12:34:00
Speaker 2
Doctor Gundry, I really want you to connect the dots for our listeners between the gut and the brain. I mean, that is your new book, The Gut Brain Paradox. I’ve got my copy right here, not there. And tell us, what is it about the microbiome? How is it affecting our brain, particularly as we age?

00:12:34:02 – 00:13:06:19
Speaker 1
We can go really deep as you want. We could call it Dave Raspberry and talk about how consciousness resides in each of these cells. And the worlds experiences in each of these cells. And mitochondria are simply ancient bacteria. And if you look at it that way, bacteria have been around for 3 billion years, and they’re clearly, along with fungi, the most successful life form that exists.

00:13:06:21 – 00:13:56:07
Speaker 1
And we’ve only been around for 100,000 years max in current form. And many people, I guess, including myself, now, believe that we’re basically a vehicle to carry around the microbiome and we’re under their direction. And it sounds really woowoo. But as I wrote about in the last book, or are you going to look at its toxoplasmosis and look at how a single celled organism can literally take over the thought process of an advanced creature, whether it’s a mouse, whether it’s a chimp, whether it’s a wolf in Yellowstone Park, or whether it’s a human being and direct its behavior.

00:13:56:10 – 00:14:44:01
Speaker 1
And I think that’s still Robert Sapolsky from Stanford, some of his best work, and he’s done a lot of great work. But showing how this single cell organism and direct human behavior. So getting back to all of that, I think when things were functioning well, and again, I’m just using pre 1970, there was this really coordinated effort between the other species that live with us for this symbiotic organism to I mean, when I wrote The Plant Paradox, people didn’t hear me when I said, look, we used to have this amazing microbiome and we were at war with plants.

00:14:44:01 – 00:15:12:02
Speaker 1
Get over it. Plants don’t like us and they don’t want us to eat them or their babies. But we had an amazing defense mechanism. We had this microbiome that says, hey, you’re eating gluten. Great, I love gluten. Bring it to me. And oh, you’re eating lectins. Great. I’m happy to you. And there was a new paper out last week that if you have the right microbiome fight hates, you know, evil.

00:15:12:02 – 00:15:43:17
Speaker 1
Another plant defense compound in grains. Fights can be converted by the microbiome into short chain fatty acid and boy does my brain want short chain fatty acids like butyrate. So you go, wow, we used to have this incredibly good cooperating system, and the microbiome would tell the immune system that, hey, we got most things covered. Anything that you swallow, we got your back.

00:15:43:19 – 00:16:16:17
Speaker 1
You guys relax, you know, go have a cigaret in a donut and we’ll protect the wall of the gut. And you guys just relax. Now fast forward. We don’t have a microbiome that’s capable of protecting us. So producing short chain fatty acids. So now we have a leaky gut. And I remember if you’d asked me probably 25 years ago what I thought about leaky God, I would have said, yeah, it’s pseudoscience.

00:16:16:19 – 00:16:31:00
Speaker 1
But, you know, thanks to Alessio Fasano, who’s now at Harvard, we can measure leaky gut, intestinal permeability is real. 100% of my patients about immune disease have leaky gut.

00:16:31:02 – 00:16:35:02
Speaker 3
I’m sorry. Can you say that again because I that’s I rarely hear a doctor say 100%.

00:16:35:04 – 00:16:37:19
Speaker 1
100%. I have not met a person.

00:16:37:22 – 00:16:41:08
Speaker 3
Every single person in your office who has autoimmune disease has leaky gut.

00:16:41:11 – 00:16:44:06
Speaker 1
And 80% of my practice is autoimmune.

00:16:44:08 – 00:16:46:14
Speaker 3
How do you measure leaky gut in those patients?

00:16:46:16 – 00:16:58:08
Speaker 1
Well, I use so I use anti-Zionism and IgG and anti react and IgG as well as antelopes IgG. Those are my favorites. And their blood.

00:16:58:10 – 00:17:04:00
Speaker 3
I do something listeners can take to their medical doctor and say would you please screen these in my next blood test.

00:17:04:03 – 00:17:14:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then they’ll roll their eyes and say I’m not interested in that. And that’s just silliness. And I don’t want to waste your money.

00:17:14:21 – 00:17:29:12
Speaker 2
And so do think that they find a functional medicine provider or not. The doctor, somebody who’s interested in that and willing to do some of these tests. Do you also test the gut microbiome? Do you ever do so just to look for what’s actually living in there?

00:17:29:14 – 00:18:02:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, initially I didn’t because quite frankly, I didn’t think they were very good. And they are, in a way a snapshot, a Polaroid picture of that last 24 hours. But now again, the Human Microbiome Project wasn’t completed until 2017. And because of that, because we can now look at the DNA and RNA of individual species, we now can really get an amazing picture of who’s in there.

00:18:02:23 – 00:18:32:25
Speaker 1
And now we can look at the products of that production. You now you get a problem. You have, you know, leaky gut, that you have gut dysbiosis. And I can fix somebody’s leaky gut. It’ll take us about nine months to a year. But getting the gut dysbiosis fix is a real challenge. And I think the son of a husband and wife team at Stanford, the microbiologist, I always give a shout out to them.

00:18:32:25 – 00:19:00:21
Speaker 1
They’re they’re the doomsayers of the human microbiome. They are convinced, and they’re right that most of us have a desert wasteland for a microbiome. And they happen to think it’s hopeless that we’ll ever get back to a tropical rainforest. That’s where I disagree with them, because I can see the tropical rainforest starting to grow. But it takes a long time.

00:19:00:23 – 00:19:18:05
Speaker 2
What do you recommend someone do? Should be for our listeners out there. Should they assume they have leaky gut and dysbiosis? Because the vast majority of people do it right? And I also want to acknowledge that antibiotics have saved many, many, many lives. Part of why we’re in this situation where we we get the opportunity to grow older, right?

00:19:18:05 – 00:19:40:22
Speaker 2
The privilege of old age is because of antibiotics. They’re not all bad. How do we live optimized lives? How do we optimize our health in that context, understanding that we can’t avoid glyphosate, we probably won’t go a lifetime without antibiotics. Some lucky people maybe will. But once we’ve been exposed to these things that affect our microbiome, create leaky gut, what do we do?

00:19:40:23 – 00:19:44:26
Speaker 2
What are the top five things that you would recommend someone do?

00:19:44:29 – 00:20:18:03
Speaker 1
Number one, and I said in the last, I don’t know, ten books. Get your vitamin D level up top easy thing to do. Almost everybody that I see with autoimmune disease has a low vitamin D level now low for me may not be what the government says is low, but I now will not let a patient that I have a vitamin D level below 100 nanograms per milliliter.

00:20:18:06 – 00:20:42:21
Speaker 1
Most of my autoimmune folks, I’m trying to run them at 115 nanograms per milliliter. Will I go higher? Yes. Have I ever seen vitamin D toxicity? No. The University of California, San Diego, which has one of the largest vitamin D research group, hasn’t seen vitamin D toxicity even at 40,000 international units a day.

00:20:42:24 – 00:20:47:17
Speaker 3
Last interview, I remember you citing San Diego State at 10,000 IU a day. And so now it’s up.

00:20:47:17 – 00:20:54:03
Speaker 1
No, that’s what they recommend. They think the average American should be taking 9600. Okay.

00:20:54:06 – 00:20:59:02
Speaker 3
But they’ve done 40,000. No toxicity. Yeah that’s right. That’s great data.

00:20:59:04 – 00:21:28:26
Speaker 1
There is a really cool paper a few years ago taking people with eczema and psoriasis and putting them on 35,000 international units of vitamin D3 for six months and putting them on a low calcium diet. I think that’s an interesting proviso. And nobody got vitamin D toxicity, and the vast majority of them completely resolve their eczema and psoriasis just by high dose vitamin D3.

00:21:28:28 – 00:21:31:09
Speaker 3
No one, no calcium in that study.

00:21:31:11 – 00:22:01:04
Speaker 1
You know, I think it’s a safety factor. The only people that I’ve seen with high calcium levels that don’t have hyper parathyroid are people who have been prescribed or have seen on the internet that they need to reverse their US food pioneer or osteoporosis by taking lots of calcium. And there is that feeling out there that you have to have lots of calcium in your diet.

00:22:01:06 – 00:22:27:24
Speaker 1
So if and I big if if vitamin D has the potential to elevate your calcium levels and if that could happen, then in this study they said, hey, let’s just go on a little calcium diet. Why vitamin D? Number one, vitamin D is essential to their stem cells that are in the lining of our gut and the lining.

00:22:27:24 – 00:22:57:21
Speaker 1
Our gut has some of the fastest turnover of any cells in our body. And so we have this incredible stem cells just waiting to be activated to plug gaps. And so we’re always creating gaps. And we need stem cells to plug those gaps. And that would be a normal part of the process. Unfortunately you have to have a high level of vitamin D to literally tell these guys, wake up, differentiate and become an endothelial lining cells in the gut.

00:22:57:23 – 00:23:19:22
Speaker 1
And long before we have leaky gut tests, I actually use vitamin D to figure out how much leaky gut people have, because I had to give them huge amounts of vitamin D, and then as their leaky, what I assume their leaky gut was going away is we could go lower and lower the dose of vitamin D and get the same serum level.

00:23:19:22 – 00:23:47:01
Speaker 1
So that’s number one. Number two, vitamin D is essential for getting a diverse microbiome. And the higher your vitamin D, the more diverse your microbiome is, which is pretty cool. And then I wrote in The Longevity Paradox that people with the highest vitamin D levels, actually live longer. So I learned that from two patients 22 years ago.

00:23:47:01 – 00:24:19:12
Speaker 1
Now, I was seeing a husband and wife for the first time, my office in Palm Springs, and they were in their late 70s, and I had their bloodwork, and both of them had vitamin D levels. So like 276 nanograms per milliliter. And I’m incredulous, you know, I’m looking at them and they appear to be perfectly normal. And I was taught that above 80 nanograms per milliliter is toxic for vitamin D levels.

00:24:19:15 – 00:24:41:17
Speaker 1
And most physicians are still taught that most oncologists. But so I’m going, gosh, you guys take a lot of minor a D, don’t you? And they said, oh yeah, you know, it’s a longevity hormone. You know, going, yeah, right. Sure. And I’m looking at their kidney function. That’s normal. And I’m looking at their calcium levels and it’s normal.

00:24:41:20 – 00:25:01:20
Speaker 1
And I’m going, never had any kidney stones because that supposedly can happen. I said no lie. And so you got to numb fingers and toes, which in theory could happen. I said, no, why are you asking all these questions about vitamin D? And I said, well, quite frankly, from what I’ve been taught, you ought to be dead.

00:25:01:23 – 00:25:16:03
Speaker 1
And so the the gentleman said, we don’t know much about vitamin D, do you, sunny? And then I go, well, just what I’ve been taught. And I said, well, why don’t you start reading? And so I did. And they were absolutely right.

00:25:16:06 – 00:25:36:12
Speaker 3
So it’s one thing and one thing I love about you, Doctor Gunter, you said this in podcast. You said you’ve learned so much from your patients. Yeah, I love that. That’s such a humble and scientific way to go about practicing medicine that were missing in mainstream medicine, that it’s for some reason, most medical doctors I talked to added, they don’t seem to learn post medical school and you’re learning from your patients.

00:25:36:12 – 00:25:38:00
Speaker 3
I love that.

00:25:38:03 – 00:26:08:26
Speaker 1
Well, number of years ago there was, I wrote a pediatrician in Boston and you noticed that practicing pediatricians were 20 years behind current scientific knowledge in their field. And Dale Bryson and I were talking about this because so he he got a group together called the Institute for Health Care Improvement. And he took a bunch of us in various fields.

00:26:08:26 – 00:26:46:15
Speaker 1
I came in from cardiology and cardiac surgery, and we had endocrinology, we had internal medicine, and sure enough, we would go into prestigious institutions and, and and also, you know, community medical center. And sure enough, the standard of practice was consistently 20 years behind current college. And so they set up this institute where we’d go in and we’d work with everybody on every three months, and we couldn’t see where we could raise the level of learning.

00:26:46:17 – 00:27:09:21
Speaker 1
It was amazing. Everything was 20 years behind common knowledge. So in a way, or do we stop learning after medical school? We’re not supposed to because we’re supposed to get continuing medical education credits every year. The sad thing is, at least for MDS, almost all continuing medical education is funded by drug companies. The so.

00:27:09:27 – 00:27:34:06
Speaker 2
Misstating. But I think conversations like this are really again, empowering right? Giving people the tools and the information that they need to optimize their function, particularly as we age. And it gets a little bit harder. So I’m surprised. Doctor Henry, I was expecting you to talk about aloe and glutamine. Some of the herbs out there. Douglas, Trinidad licorice is another one that comes out as supportive for healing leaky gut.

00:27:34:06 – 00:27:45:11
Speaker 2
And certainly in my clinical experience, I’ve seen those be very helpful. But you didn’t list them. So I’m just curious. Do you feel like those would be something someone should consider? And also probiotics. What do you think of probiotic?

00:27:45:13 – 00:28:15:03
Speaker 1
One of my biggest selling products are Gundry and it’s called Total Restore, which has diglycerides, licorice and glutamine and about 20 other things that have been shown to work. So yeah, my point to my patients and I have a product called Bio Complete three, which is probiotics, prebiotics, and post biotics. In terms of nano encapsulated butyrate. And it’s my biggest selling product.

00:28:15:03 – 00:28:41:05
Speaker 1
In fact, we sold over 10 million jars of bio complete three so I can heal leaky gut. But the reason I came down on lectins so bad is that sure, I can heal your leaky gut, but if you keep swallowing razor blades, which are lectins and other things, you’re going to tear it right back open and I see it all the time.

00:28:41:07 – 00:29:11:08
Speaker 1
So let’s talk about probiotics. I like to use the example. So I have offices in Palm Springs and in Santa Barbara. And I still see patients six days a week. And we’ll get into that in a minute. Why. But let’s suppose let’s call probiotics grass seed and let’s call prebiotics fertilizer. I can sell my patients some grass seed in Palm Springs and they’ll come back three months later.

00:29:11:08 – 00:29:26:00
Speaker 1
And they say, you sold me bad grass seed. It didn’t grow. And I go, well, what did you do with it? And they said, well, you know, I took it out in the sand and spread it around and it didn’t grow. I said, well, did you fertilize it? No, you didn’t tell me too. Well. Did you water it?

00:29:26:00 – 00:29:50:01
Speaker 1
No, you didn’t tell me to. I said, well what did you expect was going to happen? And this is what the Sonnenburg I thought was so useful. They took a bunch of healthy people and they looked at their markers of biodiversity, tropical rainforest in the gut, and they looked at markers of inflammation. And then they gave them a bunch of prebiotic fiber.

00:29:50:01 – 00:30:21:17
Speaker 1
They gave them inulin and, you know, a dandelion and looked, again, their gut microbiome diversity didn’t change, and their markers of inflammation didn’t change a bit. And I go, what the heck, you know, a bunch of fertilizer. And they said, well, we must be missing something. And I tell you what, let’s do the same thing. But this time let’s give these guys some probiotics, post by accident fermented foods, primarily yogurts and kiefer’s.

00:30:21:19 – 00:30:51:18
Speaker 1
And we give them the same inulin this time. Finally, they got more diverse microbiome and their inflammatory markers went down. And this is what I wrote about it. Gut check. What we now know is that there’s this incredible assembly line of bacteria and you may need let’s just make it easy. Five different bacterial strains. Strain one eats something and he poops out something.

00:30:51:18 – 00:31:16:14
Speaker 1
That strain two needs to eat. Strain two eats that thing and poops out something that strain three needs to eat. And if one of those guys is missing, then the assembly line falls apart. And this is exactly what you know is the problem. It’s so much more complex than any of us leading me could have imagined. The complexity.

00:31:16:16 – 00:31:44:12
Speaker 1
You know how this evolved over time to make it? What a wonderfully functioning system. And then we went and screwed it all up. You got to get probiotics, but you got to know which ones. You can’t just willy nilly throw them in there. You got to know will eventually with stool testing, know exactly who’s missing, how many of you you need to give, what we have to start.

00:31:44:12 – 00:32:14:19
Speaker 1
For instance, almost all of my patients have absolutely no butyrate producing bacteria in their gut. And one of the things that’s been startling to me, I’m a big fan of, see, CMU of film, but remarkably, a number of my patients who are taking I. I’ll just give a shout out to pendulum. Good coming or taking live action months a year.

00:32:14:21 – 00:32:37:20
Speaker 1
They don’t have any. They’re growing in their gut and they’ve been taking it for a year. And you go, well, what the heck? And then you go, oh look, these guys don’t have any acetate and acetic acid. And these guys, these butyrate producing bacteria, many of them have to have acetic acid as a starting point to make butyrate.

00:32:37:23 – 00:32:51:18
Speaker 1
And where’s acetic acid for a minute. Foods. Vinegars. And you go, That’s how all these really ancient people who fermented everything. Because that was the only storage system did.

00:32:51:18 – 00:33:19:02
Speaker 2
So how do I again, coming back to dementia and Alzheimer’s, what is the connection between imbalances, leaky gut in the gut and our brain? We know that there’s the vagus nerve directly connecting them. But what are the other nuances? You’ve talked about inflammation. I feel like there are, again, you mentioned the complexity of this. I have such a reverence, like, do we fully understand it or are we just beginning to?

00:33:19:05 – 00:33:24:28
Speaker 2
And what can we do about what we know that connects the gut to the brain?

00:33:25:00 – 00:33:50:06
Speaker 1
We’re learning more and more. I mean, it was as a surgeon used to cut the vagus nerve to treat ulcers. Imagine, I guess, my surprise, when you look at people who’ve had what’s called a big me for ulcer disease way in the past, and they have a 50% less chance of developing Parkinson’s than somebody who has his vagus nerve intact.

00:33:50:09 – 00:34:09:09
Speaker 1
And you go, well, what’s with that? Parkinson’s is a disease of the brain. It has nothing to do with the gut as we know. It has everything to do with the gut. But so that’s just one of the tip offs. And but the vagus nerve is just one way that information is sent to the brain from the gut.

00:34:09:11 – 00:34:43:11
Speaker 1
And I like, you know, Dale has wonderful ways of describing things. And we were talking about the amyloid plaque and tau proteins. And I’ve found a way of telling people about this. So let’s suppose we have leaky gut because everyone listening humor me. You have to get over it. And we have our forward facing troops lining the gut, and 80% of all of our white blood cells are lining the gut.

00:34:43:14 – 00:35:16:16
Speaker 1
What are they doing down there? You know something something pretty doggone important to a station. You know, 80% of all your soldiers down at the gut level. Well, they’re there to handle these terrorists coming across the border, and they can usually snuff it out. But if the terrorists are coming every day, these guys are getting overrun. And just like forward outposts, you would send information to all the rest of the army.

00:35:16:16 – 00:35:41:11
Speaker 1
You would go to threat level five and you would send information up to the glial cells and micro glial cells and the astrocytes going, Holy cow, we’re getting overrun down here. The terrorists are coming. They’re coming for you. You’re the most important guys of all time. The neurons are the key. Get ready, cause they’re coming. So are you.

00:35:41:11 – 00:36:21:02
Speaker 1
The example after 911, all of a sudden, if we had a federal building or an airport, we started erecting concrete barriers and rows and rows of concrete barriers, because the last thing we wanted was a terrorist with bombs and a truck, you know, heading into a federal building. And so when I deal with my patients with cognitive impairment and they bring me in their Pet scan or whatever, and look at all this, I said, those are concrete barriers that have been erected to slow down the terrorists, and they’re trying to protect those neurons.

00:36:21:04 – 00:36:49:24
Speaker 1
The problem is, they’ve done such a good job that they’ve pulled up all the drawbridge, and now no information can be exchanged at all. And that that’s helpful to them. And I think they’ll like that example too. You know, we’ve now wasted $40 billion trying to tear down the concrete barriers in the brain. And it didn’t work. Of course not, because that wasn’t the problem.

00:36:49:26 – 00:36:55:18
Speaker 1
That was a response to we’re being overwhelmed from our gut.

00:36:55:21 – 00:37:01:22
Speaker 3
So the amyloid plaque is the concrete barriers our brain put up to protect itself from the terrorists. Got it.

00:37:01:24 – 00:37:23:14
Speaker 2
For anyway. And who’s listening? Who wants to protect their brain? Who maybe knows that they have, risk of developing a neurodegenerative disease as they age, whether it’s Ms. or Parkinson’s or Alzheimer’s of dementia, one of the many types of dementia we’re learning more about. What can they do? What can they start doing today? Should they go get a test to look at their gut?

00:37:23:21 – 00:37:40:12
Speaker 2
Should they just start taking probiotics? Should they just start eating more fermented foods? What about a ketogenic diet? You keep mentioning butyrate. I’m wondering how do all of these pieces play a role in reducing our risk of neurodegenerative disease as we age?

00:37:40:15 – 00:38:11:09
Speaker 1
Well, I think that’s one of the things that the Dale and I have found through the years that has been useful in that butyrate is probably the most important short chain fatty acid for mitochondrial health, for neuron health, for preventing cancer. I mean, it’s such an amazing anti-cancer agent, but that’s another story. And one of the things is lacking.

00:38:11:09 – 00:38:41:19
Speaker 1
And almost all of my patients, when they walk through the door is they don’t produce any butyrate and they don’t have the precursors for producing butyrate, they don’t have the bacteria. And so I think one of the ways is a ketogenic diet. And, you know, Dale and I when we started long ago, we were, for instance, very afraid of fats, particularly for our Applegate for patients.

00:38:41:21 – 00:39:13:02
Speaker 1
And through the years, we’ve all kind of come to embrace certain very good fats or a mild ketogenic diet to start making, you know, these butyric acid compounds, that’s become standard for you, Heather and me and Dale. And we’ve seen the results. You know, I started giving some of my patients, you know, important cheeses, like, for instance, parmesan cheese or goat sheep cheese.

00:39:13:02 – 00:39:37:12
Speaker 1
And heaven forbid, if I had done that 20 years ago, I was so afraid for my every four as of giving that saturated fats. I think we talked about that before. So there’s a lot of ways that people can take care of their brain. And certainly with mild cognitive impairment, that’s one of the steps I think most of us have seen people improve.

00:39:37:15 – 00:40:00:07
Speaker 3
Can I ask? My uncle was recently diagnosed with cancer and he’s having a meeting with his oncologist soon. I want to ask, what can someone who’s either been diagnosed with cancer or is concerned about that? How could they best use butyrate to be of help? Is it to go on a keto diet? Is it to take, an MCT oil supplement, or is there a specific type of food that they want to eat to get the most butyrate?

00:40:00:07 – 00:40:01:14
Speaker 3
What can they do?

00:40:01:16 – 00:40:36:10
Speaker 1
Well, the nice thing about MCT oils, particularly C8, a bit of C10, is that it’s taken directly to the liver. Medium chain triglycerides are absorbed totally differently than any of their fat. All of their fat has to be transported by Kiowa. Mike rounds into the lymph system. MCT is taken directly into the portal vein, and then it goes to the liver, where the liver basically has no choice except to convert it into ketone bodies.

00:40:36:12 – 00:41:07:28
Speaker 1
And so you could eat. I used to joke, you could eat this giant fresh fruit salad that has more sugar and carbohydrates and and have a couple tablespoons of MCT oil. You’ll get into ketosis. And that’s really the beauty of, of MCT oil. Why I really like goats and sheep cheeses and goat and sheep yogurts is that 30% of the fat and goat and sheep milk is actually MCTs, unlike cows.

00:41:08:01 – 00:41:17:19
Speaker 1
So why not, you know, and then ferment it? So that’s why I’m a big fan of goat and sheep cheeses.

00:41:17:21 – 00:41:41:20
Speaker 2
You mentioned fruit and fruit, sugar, fruit, toast, glucose. All of the high fructose corn sirup. These things are ubiquitous on an American diet. And many people who struggle to go in the direction of ketosis. It’s because they have such intense sugar cravings. Now that harking back to the gut microbiome, right? It’s not even us craving that you talked about toxoplasmosis affecting behavior.

00:41:41:22 – 00:42:05:03
Speaker 2
Yeast and bacteria craving glucose and sugars can have a huge impact on our behavior and what we choose to eat. I know I have what I call my donut days that first 24 hours or so when I am restricting carbohydrates. I haven’t eaten a donut in 15 years, but it’s all I can think about all day. And so this is a big struggle.

00:42:05:03 – 00:42:24:01
Speaker 2
And what I’m wondering from you is what are your favorite sugar alternatives? Why do you suggest to people who have those sweet cravings as they try to reduce that? Our diet soda as an option? What about, xylitol and or resveratrol? Allulose monk.

00:42:24:02 – 00:42:25:00
Speaker 1
Cellulose.

00:42:25:06 – 00:42:27:01
Speaker 2
Yes. Okay.

00:42:27:03 – 00:42:28:25
Speaker 1
And you know, well, you know, I.

00:42:28:25 – 00:42:30:08
Speaker 2
Like a lot some of the way.

00:42:30:11 – 00:42:55:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, it’s actually number one, it’s a true sugar. It was first discovered in figs, but it it’s actually a prebiotic. The FDA has declared it is actually prebiotic. And it’s got some really cool, you know, a little lower blood sugar. I put it in my black coffee just to blunt the, you know, coffee’s effect on raising my blood sugar.

00:42:55:26 – 00:43:31:22
Speaker 1
And there’s been a couple of cool human studies showing that it does produce weight loss. I like it so much. Gundry, MD, makes our own Ali themselves. And so, no, I’m a huge fan of Galileo’s, and I think it really does help get away these sugar cravings. But let’s not kid ourselves when your brain can only use glucose as fuel and needs huge amounts of it to drive these poor mitochondrial function, which are basically dead anyhow, your brain is going or where’s all the sugar?

00:43:31:22 – 00:44:01:02
Speaker 1
I need sugar, go find it, you know, shame on you. Couple that with now we know that because of our processed food diet, there are bacteria who are really good at kind of moving up the food chain and grab simple sugars and taking that and then saying, yeah, that’s exactly what we like. Go find some more. It’s just like it’s an addiction that I talk about.

00:44:01:04 – 00:44:30:14
Speaker 1
These bacteria will control your cravings. The sad thing is, 100 years ago, our great great grandparents a whole food, and they ate it whole. And we tend to forget that. I mean, no offense to anybody, but a you know, a college and protein smoothie. That’s not a whole food. When we ate these whole things, there was a lot left over that we couldn’t digest.

00:44:30:21 – 00:44:55:24
Speaker 1
And that filtered down primarily into our colon where all these good guys were waiting and they say, oh yeah, oh yeah, that’s that. That’s what we were waiting for. Thanks so much. We got what we need now they hear us chewing and they hear us swallowing. And none of that stuff is in anything we eat, but they know we’re eating and nothing comes.

00:44:55:26 – 00:45:09:12
Speaker 1
So they’re going, what the heck? Where’s our stuff? Go find some more food. And that process keeps going. So it’s, boy, we done a bad job.

00:45:09:15 – 00:45:16:19
Speaker 3
Doctor gadget, you mentioned coffee. What is the impact of coffee and alcohol on the gut?

00:45:16:22 – 00:46:03:17
Speaker 1
Coffee has some really good polyphenols, and one of the real, I think revelations over the last 20 years is that polyphenols are not really good. Antioxidants to get over it. But they’re really good prebiotics for gut microbiome. And so anytime you can get polyphenols into your diet, that’s a great thing. Now alcohol it depends. For instance, there is an interesting human trial that I like to cite where they took human volunteers and they gave them, equivalent calorie amounts of red wine, red grape juice and gin.

00:46:03:19 – 00:46:49:01
Speaker 1
And looking at intestinal permeability and gut microbiome diversity, only the red wine was capable of improving gut microbiome diversity and helping the gut wall. The grape juice was a wash, probably because of most of the fructose in there, and the gin was horrible. It really hampered the gut microbiome and really hurt the gut wall. And one of the sad things I see in our local costcos is, a lot of our senior citizens pushing out these half gallon of vodkas and gins and whatever, and that seems to be their drink of choice.

00:46:49:02 – 00:47:09:09
Speaker 1
So, I really try to wean my alcohol drinkers over to red wine. There are two papers out of France looking at women’s mental and vascular health. That champagne is very effective. And my wife reminds me of that, frequently.

00:47:09:11 – 00:47:23:28
Speaker 2
Speaking of drinks of choice. So if I have a glass of wine, I’ll be up in the middle of the night with sweating. And I have always thought it’s because of the sugar. Maybe I’m super toxic and don’t realize it, but it just doesn’t agree with me.

00:47:24:00 – 00:47:27:05
Speaker 1
You’re sweating because you uncoupled your mitochondria.

00:47:27:08 – 00:47:43:12
Speaker 2
Okay, so there’s an explanation for this. I just avoided it because it doesn’t look good. Yeah, that’s why you’ll get a kick out of it. So last time I saw you, you sent me home with some high polyphenol olive oil. And a girlfriend of mine who I grew up with. We went through our teens and 20s together, so we used to take shots of alcohol.

00:47:43:14 – 00:47:46:26
Speaker 2
Now we take shots of your, olive oil and.

00:47:46:26 – 00:47:47:19
Speaker 1
Excellent.

00:47:47:25 – 00:48:05:07
Speaker 2
I’ve started craving it. And that peppery flavor, it’s just so funny and kind of comical to me that we’re putting it into shot glasses. So instead of drinking alcohol, really, it can be fun and social to taste test olive oil and to do.

00:48:05:07 – 00:48:06:04
Speaker 1
Oh yeah, it’s great fun.

00:48:06:07 – 00:48:08:20
Speaker 2
Really good for us.

00:48:08:22 – 00:48:38:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, the the Greeks, the Greeks consume 26l of olive oil per capita per year. Now think about that. So, you know, a two month old baby is having to say no. So most Greeks, most adult Greeks have a liter of olive oil per week. And that was actually the basis of the pre-med study that get a lot of grief.

00:48:38:13 – 00:49:03:21
Speaker 1
So in the study, people were prescribed a liter of olive oil per week for prevention of heart disease, and also, turns out, actually improved cognition over a five year period from 65 to 70, either nuts or oh well. But they were prescribed a liter per week and they had to pick it up at the clinic and bring it home empty and bring it back empty.

00:49:03:23 – 00:49:11:09
Speaker 2
And not a little olive oil is created equal. No looking for good olive oil. What are some of the considerations?

00:49:11:12 – 00:49:42:23
Speaker 1
My olive oils. The highest polyphenol test tested. All well that has been tested. It’s 30 times more polyphenols than any other tests. But there are some really good olive oils out there. If you if you go to Costco, they have usually a tall square bottle and it’s got a Toscana label on the top that I’ve been to that bottling plant, it’s in Tuscany, and that’s a really good, reputable place to get olive oil.

00:49:42:26 – 00:50:02:07
Speaker 1
There’s a really good company out California called biriyani. If you ever see nouveau olive oil, which is the the first, youngest, always that has more polyphenol content in general, more bitter, more better if it makes you cough, usually the polyphenol content is quite high.

00:50:02:10 – 00:50:05:03
Speaker 2
And is it important to get it in glass versus plastic?

00:50:05:05 – 00:50:26:09
Speaker 1
Yes. Please don’t go to Costco and buy the giant plastic jug. The other trick is olive oil. Why don’t you open? When you open the bottle, it starts to go rancid fairly quickly and oxidize quite quickly. So you want to buy olive oil on small bottles and use it up quickly. Don’t you know? Take the gallon jug home.

00:50:26:12 – 00:50:27:26
Speaker 2
Get through that liter a week?

00:50:27:28 – 00:50:33:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, and don’t put it in your windowsill. I seen that in some folks.

00:50:33:10 – 00:50:37:27
Speaker 3
I love that quote that you have, Doctor Country, that the purpose of food is to bring olive oil to your meal.

00:50:37:28 – 00:51:06:08
Speaker 1
I learned that from two elderly gentleman, at the top of a white road in a in a trattoria in Italy. My wife and I would just drive up white roads to see what people did. And so they were having their courses. And there’s always a bottle of olive oil on every table. When they finish the course, they take the olive oil, only dump it in the bowl, and then they tear a piece of bread, smash it in the olive.

00:51:06:08 – 00:51:23:20
Speaker 1
I just, you know, I go, you know, what do you guys do that for that? Look, the purpose of bread is to get olive oil in your mouth, and I’ll remember that. So that’s where that came from. It. You know, it’s only purpose of food is to get all the doctor country.

00:51:23:21 – 00:51:46:06
Speaker 3
I want to ask you, something that’s a little bit contentious in the scientific literature to play on who you talk to. It’s about, these artificial sweeteners. Some studies show that artificial sweeteners don’t spike blood sugar and don’t create insulin resistance. These are usually short term studies or laboratory studies. Then you have longitudinal studies like there’s one out of France of 100,000 people looking at people over nine years.

00:51:46:11 – 00:52:11:21
Speaker 3
And they found that artificial sweeteners and they looked at multiple of them. Exposure to those basically increases the risk of type two diabetes by 69% in this longitudinal study. So in the real world, it looks bad in some clinical trials, some short term studies, it doesn’t look so bad. Can you explain what artificial sweeteners are doing to our gut bacteria and how that might be influencing the risk of insulin resistance?

00:52:11:21 – 00:52:13:18
Speaker 3
Type two diabetes?

00:52:13:20 – 00:52:41:18
Speaker 1
Well, there are several studies showing that a lot of these artificial sweeteners, particularly sucralose and as part time, really do impact the gut microbiome in a negative way. But I think the simplest way to think about it is a former Diet Coke addict, right. Drink eight Diet Cokes a day. And I was, you know, 70 pounds overweight, running 30 miles a week, eating a healthy, low fat diet.

00:52:41:18 – 00:53:12:09
Speaker 1
So we have we have no sugar receptors in our tongue. We have no sugar receptors in our gut, but we have sweet receptors, and they’re there because the only time we would have ever had sugar was when fruit was ripe, or occasionally honey. But that’s it. So your brain would sense that sugar was coming because that was the only thing called down to the pancreas.

00:53:12:09 – 00:53:36:19
Speaker 1
Make some insulin so we can handle this. And now when it tastes sugar, it says, okay, sugar is coming. Pancreas, go kick up some insulin. Pancreas says, yeah, I guess it’s coming. So the insulin goes up and then blood sugar falls and the brain goes, what the heck, you didn’t get any sugar. You go back and get some more.

00:53:36:21 – 00:54:02:12
Speaker 1
I’m starving to death up here. Literally. If they could have sterilized a Diet Coke, I would have done surgery with it in my hand. So I was constantly craving more food because my brain was going, you’ve been cheated again. You’ve been cheated again. I just, you know, you drank 12 gallons of sugar and it didn’t show up. And I think that’s where this long term effect comes from.

00:54:02:15 – 00:54:10:07
Speaker 1
I think it just your brain just keeps craving it because you’re clearly drinking sugar. So far as the brain can tell.

00:54:10:09 – 00:54:34:06
Speaker 2
You have this breadth of experience and wisdom. You have an a cardiothoracic surgeon, a general surgeon. You have tried the healthy diets of the 80s and 90s, the low fat diets, the running, the Diet Coke, read everything that they told you was healthy, and yet your experience now is showing you that we had it wrong for a long time.

00:54:34:08 – 00:54:42:08
Speaker 2
As you’re getting older, what are some of the big takeaways about aging with grace and enjoying it?

00:54:42:10 – 00:55:10:00
Speaker 1
Well, number one, I’ve always told my patients never retire. It is a death trap for almost everybody. Just never retire. The other thing is, like any of the blue zones and let’s not go there. But we live in a hilly community for nothing else. Work against gravity. Going uphill, going downhill. If you go into a building, that’s fine.

00:55:10:00 – 00:55:19:21
Speaker 1
Take the elevator up and lock the stairs down. You’ll still get a huge amount of benefit, but never retire. It’s just so bad.

00:55:19:24 – 00:55:22:20
Speaker 2
And what brings you joy as you get older?

00:55:22:23 – 00:55:45:15
Speaker 1
I’m going to turn 75 in a month. And again, I still see patients six days a week. A newer patient says, what the heck, you know you’re about to be 75. Well, you don’t have to do this anymore. I said, well, actually I do, because the only reason I get up is because if I don’t see a miracle happened today, something I would have called a miracle 30 years ago.

00:55:45:22 – 00:55:58:04
Speaker 1
And if I don’t see one a day, it’s a bad day. So why wouldn’t I get up to see a miracle? What? I would have thought it was a miracle. So that’s why I get up.

00:55:58:06 – 00:56:01:13
Speaker 2
It sounds like your work brings you a lot of purpose and meaning.

00:56:01:15 – 00:56:08:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, I just signed a lease. A ten year lease on my new office. And honestly, you know, I look.

00:56:08:22 – 00:56:12:13
Speaker 2
Congratulations. A great day.

00:56:12:16 – 00:56:14:25
Speaker 1
All right, do what you love and love what you do.

00:56:15:00 – 00:56:23:23
Speaker 2
But to all of our listeners, you can guarantee to see Doctor Gundry for the next ten years to patients. You can if you can get to Montecito.

00:56:23:25 – 00:56:28:06
Speaker 1
And you I’m probably Palm Springs to. I don’t have my office there.

00:56:28:08 – 00:56:38:06
Speaker 3
Doctor. Gentry, this is just fabulous. I you’re a true inspiration. I first of all, I love your books. Your books are great. How are you able to crank out so many books? I don’t I don’t know, it’s really impressive.

00:56:38:08 – 00:56:59:12
Speaker 1
Well, I usually write my books, when I’m on vacation or on holiday and in the in the south of France or and or, Tuscany, because it’s really hard to write when you’re seeing six patients six days a week. And on the seventh day I’m at Gundry, MD eight. So, so.

00:56:59:14 – 00:57:04:00
Speaker 3
So most people go on vacation to rest. You go on vacation to write New York Times bestselling books.

00:57:04:02 – 00:57:06:29
Speaker 1
That’s what I try to do. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

00:57:07:01 – 00:57:14:13
Speaker 2
The gut brain paradox is available now. Where can people find your books and find out more about you?

00:57:14:15 – 00:57:32:27
Speaker 1
Because I’ve had, a number of New York Times bestsellers and usually most bookstores, even the independent bookstores. And please help the independent booksellers out here. Covid was really bad for them, but you can find them at Barnes and Noble, Amazon, etc., etc. were fantastic.

00:57:32:27 – 00:57:38:26
Speaker 2
And Doctor Gundry, md.com. Is that a good place for people to find out more about your products that you mentioned?

00:57:38:29 – 00:58:04:20
Speaker 1
Gundry, MD is my supplement and food company. Doctor gundry.com is my website and the Doctor Henry podcast. We’ve had the pleasure of having you on another and the YouTube channel. I’ve got two YouTube channels, Instagram. And if I don’t show up on everybody’s feed in the morning waving at you and I’ve done advertising bad.

00:58:04:23 – 00:58:12:12
Speaker 2
But such an inspiration is such a privilege every time I get to talk to you. And a pleasure. Thank you so, so much for joining us.